Forming Member Needed Programs with Chris Romer

This transcript has been lightly edited for readability and to correct obvious transcription errors while preserving the meaning of the original conversation.

Episode 21 — Forming Member Needed Programs with Chris Romer
Clean Speaker-Labeled Transcript
Guest: Chris Romer
Automated QA: Passed

00:00.076 Chris Romer
Is that all of our programs are driven by data and research and community need. We're not sitting in the conference room in the office saying, what do we think the community wants? What do we think the community needs? We're really reaching out to the businesses themselves and asking them that question so that we're able to then formulate. programs or share with other groups to let them formulate programs if it's not in our strategic priority list.
00:34.22 Brandon Burton
I'm excited to bring Chris Romer on Chamber Chat Podcast today as he discusses some of the fantastic programs, member needed programs, that have been implemented at the Vail Valley Partnership. Let's cue the intro and get into this fantastic interview. This is the Chamber Chat Podcast, the show dedicated to chamber professionals to spark ideas and to get actionable tips and strategies to better serve your members and community.
01:08.078 Brandon Burton
Thank you for joining us today for episode twenty-one of the Chamber Chat Podcast. I'm Brandon Burton and it is my goal to introduce you to people and ideas so you can better serve your chamber members and your community. If you're new to the Chamber Chat Podcast, please visit Chamberchat Podcast dot com slash start to learn more about what you can expect from the show and you can receive some valuable tips for some nondues revenue ideas to use at your chamber. Again, that's chambertap podcast.com slash start. And before we jump into the show today, let's take just a moment to learn about our sponsor for this episode. Every chamber is looking for new ways to increase their non-dues revenue. Has your chamber found a good affinity program? I have a great affinity program to offer your chamber that will continue to increase in revenue year after year. I want to introduce you to Swipe It for all of your credit card processing needs. Swipe It has a unique affinity program that 1. Lowers your credit card processing fees at the chamber, 2. Helps your chamber members be more profitable, and three, provides recurring nondues revenue to your chamber. To learn more, please visit chamberchappodcast.com slash CC for credit card. Again chamberchappodcast.com slash C C and get swiping with swipe it.
02:40.52 Brandon Burton
All right, we are back, and our guest today is Chris Romer. Chris serves as the president and CEO of the Vail Valley Partnership, or VVP. The Vail Valley Partnership is a regional chamber of commerce, destination sales and marketing organization, and economic development organization representing Vail Valley, Colorado. VVP plays a leadership role in the continuing process of of building trust between various sectors, geographic and economic, and provides community leadership and vision to enhance commerce and economic vitality of the Vail Valley and was named Chamber of the Year by the Association of Chamber of Commerce Executives in 2016. In his role, Chris leads the partnership team to help positively impact the community via various programs and tourism endeavors. Roomer's a graduate of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce Foundation's Institute for Organizational Management Program and has been named a top 25 mind in the hospitality sales, marketing, and revenue management by Hospitality Sales and Man Sales and Marketing Association International and Chamber Executive of the Year by the Colorado Chamber of Commerce Executives. VVP has received the following recognition during Chris's tenure. They were voted Chamber Innovation Grand Prize winner by Chambermaster in 2017. Core Competency Award by Western Association of Chamber Executives in 2016. Chamber of the Year winner in 2016 and finalist in 2015 by the Association of Chamber of Commerce Executives. Special Achievement Award from Colorado Chamber of Commerce Executives in 2015. Platinum Choice Award winner from the Smart. From Smart Meetings in 2015, Top Destination Marketing Organization by Colorado Meetings and Events Magazine in 2017, 2013, 2011. Pinnacle Award winner as Outstanding Destination Support Organization by Successful Meetings Magazine in 2010 and 2009. Romer dedicates his time.
05:02.936 Brandon Burton
To various industry boards and committees, including Western Association of Chamber Executives, Colorado Mountain College, Colorado Tourism Office, Tourism Industry Association of Colorado, Colorado Association Destination Marketing Organizations, Colorado Chamber of Commerce Executives, Northwest Colorado Council of Government's Economic Development Board, Rural Workforce Consortium, and Vale Economic Advisory Council. Roomer also served as governor appointee to the Brand Colorado Council and the Colorado Tourism Outdoor Recreation Key Industries Steering Network. Romer resides in Eagleville, Colorado, with his wife Stacy and daughter Kayla, and their golden retriever, Cayman. Chris, please say hello to the audience and share something interesting about yourself that we might not have learned about you in your bio.
06:01.378 Chris Romer
Yeah, well thanks, Brandon. I appreciate the opportunity. and as you list the various different things that that we've done and groups that I'm involved in, it it it makes me think that we've got a lot going on. and that's because we have a we have a community that is is a little bit challenging in a lot of ways from a business standpoint. And I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit more in the call. I guess from a from a bio standpoint. I would add that being here in the mountains of Colorado, I am a skier. I do try to ski a couple days a week, including Friday mornings during the ski season. Also a trail runner, have done a number of half marathons and a full marathon as well. So enjoy recreating in the mountains in addition to the various things that you listed in the bio and the introduction. I appreciate that.
06:55.782 Brandon Burton
Absolutely. I'm just shocked that you have time to put in that those many hours on the trails and the slopes with everything you're involved in. That's that's time management at its best right there. So great job. Can you give us all a little bit of better idea about the Vail Valley Partnership? Maybe the size of of the partnership so we can all relate to you and in your area a little bit better.
07:19.15 Chris Romer
Sure, of course. We are, as you had mentioned in the introduction, we are the Regional Chamber of Commerce representing Eagle County, Colorado. We are also involved in economic development and tourism promotion efforts. We keep both of those two endeavors pretty, pretty tight as they are contracts for services rendered underneath our chamber umbrella. Our community is about 50,000 people. About 2,600 businesses within that service region. We have about 885 members. we have a budget of about $1.5 million per year. and again, we we're a small business community. We we don't have a lot of national brands. We have 90% of our businesses have under 20 employees, and 80% of our businesses have under 10 employees. So we're driven by small business, as are many communities around the country, but maybe even more so here than in a traditional metropolitan or suburban chamber area. Really a small business-oriented community, lots of entrepreneurism in a community that has a lot of transient churn in our population because of the seasonality of the ski mountains. and the high cost of living. So a a great community known for our outdoor recreation and increasingly known, I think, for a great place to live and work and play.
08:58.218 Brandon Burton
It sounds like a great place to be. And I love that you're able to work so closely with so many of those small businesses. And I'm sure we're gonna get into that more as we have our discussion today. But just to maybe bring everybody else up to speed, I was recommended to reach out to Chris when we had Frank Kenney on the show a few weeks ago. For anybody that might have missed that, that was episode sixteen. So you can go to chamberchatpodcast.com slash episode sixteen to hear that interview. But as I interviewed Frank, Frank Kenney, he brought up the Vail Valley Partnership in our interview. As he was talking about the importance of finding out what your chamber members' needs are and then creating programs to suit those needs. So our topic for today's discussion is forming member-needed programs. So, Chris, as you explained a little bit about what the Vail Valley Partnership is made up of and the businesses in your community, I could see how some of these programs that you guys have developed maybe came to be as you're talking about a lot of the tourism coming through. I know that would be a challenge when you're constantly needing to remarket to a different group of people every few months, depending on the time of year and what's going on. So I'm sure that played into to one of these programs, but I wanted to just run down a list of some of these programs that that you guys have set up there and Then if you wouldn't mind just picking out maybe a couple of those programs and walk us through how they came to be, what needs were being met by them. Does that sound good? All right, so the the programs for the Vail Valley Partnership are Lodge Quality Assurance, Certified Vendor Program, Vail Valley Merchant Alliance, Platinum Service Program, Merchant Pass Program, Next Vail Valley, My Partner Career Network.
10:34.456 Chris Romer
Sure thing, happy to do it.
10:56.134 Brandon Burton
and a nonprofit network. So which which of these would you like to kind of pull out and focus on first?
11:04.652 Chris Romer
Yeah, and we have a few other programs as well that we've launched more recently. But the I think the first one to talk about might be the My Partner Career Network. That's our trailing spouse and trailing partner program. and I'll dive right in if that's okay. Yeah, so from a foundational standpoint, Brandon, we we do a lot of outreach to our business community and a lot of
11:22.966 Brandon Burton
Yes, please, go for it.
11:34.306 Chris Romer
business retention visits, a lot of focus group meetings, two different annual surveys, one around membership and one around workforce. And we do some flash polling as well to ask around specific issues and and things. So we have we have our our tentacles, if you will, throughout the business community, through through a lot of different ways and a lot of different listening sessions and formal research outreach. And the reason we do all of that, and the reason I preface the discussion with that, is that all of our programs are driven by data and research and community need. We're not sitting in the conference room in the office saying, what do we think the community wants? What do we think the community needs? We're we're really reaching out to the businesses themselves. And asking them that question so that we're able to then formulate programs or share with other groups to let them formulate programs if it's not in our strategic priority list in order to meet community needs. We've found that to be a very successful model since 2007 and and many of these programs have come out of that more grassroots network. And the the beauty of that, I think, is that when The businesses write the plan, the businesses will be engaged and they'll underwrite the plan, right? They'll pay pay to participate in these programs because they're the ones who identify the needs. so that said, one that we're really yeah.
13:13.142 Brandon Burton
Maybe before you jump into one, I want to ask, because I think this is important, especially with you prefacing ever prefacing everything about this, the data collecting between the visits, surveys, flash polling, listening sessions. I I guess how would you organize the data that you're able to collect from all these various sources so you can look at it in a way that makes sense to develop these programs?
13:36.44 Chris Romer
I I think the key to that is by asking the same thematic questions. They don't need to be the exact same question, but they should have the same themes around business support, around what are the obstacles facing business, what prevents you from growing. If you ask questions that are in the same theme, you're able to then identify the common theme throughout industry sector or size of business or geographic location, keeping in mind we're a countywide chamber. We have nine towns that we represent. So there are some some differences within those individual communities. and by by asking the same thematic questions to different audiences in different ways, you're not going to ask a a written survey question the same that you would on a business retention visit, for example, or the same way that you would in a focus group with with 12 people around the table. but asking questions in the same theme around what's preventing you from growing, what are your biggest obstacles, et cetera, you're I think you're able to then cross-reference all of those to say, here's the things that are popping and here's the things and the themes that are coming out of the business community. For example, maybe there's a common theme, and this is a transition to the My Partner Career Network. But what we found in that case was there was a common theme. Starting to pop up that businesses were having trouble retaining management and executive level positions because their spouses or partners were not able to find ways to meaningful, meaningfully integrate into the community. So we started seeing that in survey results. We started seeing that in business retention visits. And then we're able to kind of push on that a little bit. And ask more directly, are you seeing this trend that we're starting to see and hear from businesses on? So we developed the My Partner Career Network as a trailing spouse program where we do an informational interview. We've engaged our human resource committee community, rather, and they've agreed to do informational interviews when it's someone that is within their industry sector.
16:00.524 Chris Romer
And they've agreed to then connect them to other people that they know. So there's three touch points through this program. They're meeting with us. We're sending it out to our network of about 80 human resource professionals who are then agreeing to do an informational interview if it's within their industry sector. And then they're handing it off to people that they know that might be interested. So we're giving these new people into the community a very real tangible. way to connect and integrate in into the community when they when they first arrive. And it's been it's been massively successful. It's it's actually quite a a simple program. It's not an easy program. There's some time commitment and some relationship management that needs to happen with the human resource community, but it's been wildly successful. The the businesses love it because they're getting a warm, a warm lead. The individuals love it because they're feeling welcomed into the community. And we have over a 90% job placement rate for people who go through that program, which is which is really impressive and earns us quite a bit of goodwill in the community and with newcomers to the community. We even had one, we we get testimonials from this program all the time. One of my favorite was that there was an executive who Made the decision to relocate here simply because we had this program and they knew that their spouse would have a way to connect and integrate and meet people. what a great testimonial and what a great thing for that business that that was able to recruit this executive because this program existed. Without this program, they would they might not have relocated here. In fact, they said they wouldn't have. This was the deciding factor in accepting the job. And what a what a cool testimonial and what a great thing. That business will probably join forever and ever because of the ability that this one fairly simple, straightforward program offered to them in terms of value from the chamber.
18:12.982 Brandon Burton
So do your members need to opt into this network, the My Partner Career Network, or how does that work? Is it is it as a a business who's hiring a new executive, let's say, and they're coming with their spouse, is that something that's already available to them by being a member, or do they enroll and say, as we bring these people in, we want to be part of this network of employing and helping to find people and and the overall mesh?
18:39.138 Chris Romer
No, so we do not require membership in order to participate in the program. It's something we offer to all businesses throughout our our county. but the people who are so that's for the businesses sending the trailing partner or the trailing spouse through the program. It's open to anybody. The businesses that are part of the network who are reviewing the the resumes and agreeing to do the informational interviews, those are our members. so we're leveraging our members. They're getting first crack at at hiring these people, at reviewing their resumes and connecting them. So there's a membership component to be part of the HR component of the network and the being able to put your employees through the program is open to to everybody.
19:26.572 Brandon Burton
Okay. That that clears it up. That's perfect. And I was gonna ask for some examples, but with the ninety percent job placement success, and then you you shared an example, that's great. That's a fantastic program. obviously a need was there, and I think that need is in many communities, and this is something that that could be looked at, you know, at at other chambers of commerce. is there another another program or two that you'd want to to dive into?
19:54.158 Chris Romer
Sure. I think the second one that I would spotlight is a relatively new program. It's called the One Valley Healthcare Program. And it's one, again, that that we looked at from the standpoint of what are our businesses telling us and what are we what are we hearing are pain points in the community. So I mentioned earlier we do annual workforce studies. and we we started seeing around 2014 that healthcare was starting to become a a bigger pain point for people. And in 2016 it continued. So we we saw this trend through data and said this is an issue for our community. Started looking at what different chambers and different communities were doing around the country, and and went pretty far down the path of trying to develop an association healthcare plan. That many chambers of commerce have done throughout the country. We benchmarked seven of those, sat down with our hospital CEO, got them on board to be partners, took it to the state insurance commissioner of Colorado, who told us, I have no intention of ever approving one of these plans in the state of Colorado. So we were forced to pivot pretty quickly.
21:15.15 Chris Romer
because the insurance commissioner has the full authority to approve any plan that goes on the market in Colorado and made it very clear that that would never happen, the AHP or the Miwa program that many chamber execs are probably familiar with. So we were forced to say either option one, well, not gonna happen in Colorado, and throw our hands up and tell our community, Hey, sorry guys, we tried. or option two, which is a little more on brand with with the way we do things here, was to say, let's find something that we can do that does not require regulatory approval or or state approval. And we partnered with the Small Association Leadership Alliance, Sala, which is an association out of Washington, DC. To provide the a healthcare program that was a preventative care program layered with a cost-sharing program for medical events. And that we launched that program just last November, November 28th of 2018, to huge fanfare and kudos in the community. And it it really reinforced our brand at the chamber as a problem solver. This healthcare program. saving people 50 to 60 percent, up to 50 or 60 percent off of traditional health insurance and keeping in mind that in our community in the mountain region of Colorado, we have either the highest or second highest health insurance cost in the nation. So it many families and people were paying more for their health insurance than they were for their home mortgage. Many people had very high deductible. plans that they couldn't they just couldn't afford not only the monthly premium, but if anything were to happen, the co-pays and the deductibles. So it was a we have 19% uninsured in our community. So it's a it's a big, big issue. And again, by re noting the data and hearing what businesses were telling us, by benchmarking and looking what people were doing across the country, and then by pivoting and being nimble.
23:38.198 Chris Romer
To develop this new program. And we've had, we have over 50 different businesses or families who are signed up for the program. We earn a monthly residual for every individual or family that's part of the plan. And now we have these businesses that are able to offer healthcare that have not been able to do that in the past. And they're able to offer it not only to their full-time year-round people, but their seasonal workforce, their part-time workforce. So it's become a real r retention tool for these businesses and an employee attraction tool for these businesses while addressing a community need. I'd say of all the things that we've done in the 12 years that I've been at the partnership, it's the one that has really reinforced our value proposition to the community and really positioned us and reinforced us as a community problem solver. to address these big community issues. And and it all started by looking at data and and researching different things that were out there and being able to have the courage to be nimble and and try something new.
24:49.664 Brandon Burton
I love that, especially in your business community there where it is mostly small businesses. I can see that being a huge need for healthcare with the changes going on. And to be able to offer a solution like this, you really are being a problem solver. But it also is going to help, I would assume, your membership retention over time as they have this great benefit that they get through their chamber association. that's gonna keep them around for a long time as they especially as they see the value. that comes out of that. So I appreciate that. This is fun. Should we try for one more, one more of these programs and have you go through it?
25:25.42 Chris Romer
Yeah, let's do one more. and what the one I would spotlight is a program that might be relatively unique to us or to more tourism-oriented destinations, but I think the the foundation of it follows the same theme. and that's our lodging quality assurance program. And the lodging quality assurance program is it this one has been around for a long time. This is this program has been around for for twenty plus years. And but it started by listening to our community. So in the mid-90s, what was found is that our ratings in some of the Ski Magazine publications and consumer feedback, the ratings of our lodging properties were falling short, right? We were losing the satisfaction, the guest satisfaction scores were going down in relation to their their lodging accommodations. We have about 50% of our lodging accommodation is traditional hotel product. The other 50% is vacation rental condominiums. And so we started this program in partnership with the ski company and the two of our towns and we developed a about a 100 point checklist for for lodging units. condominiums and hotel rooms looking at and and we have inspectors who go in and and rate units based on the quality of their everything, the quality of their flooring, of their electronics, of their cabinets, of their furniture and mattresses and artwork. Everything within the four four walls of the accommodation unit, we're rating that and we developed the rating scale on a proprietary basis. We don't share what, you know, is the entryway versus the kitchen versus the bedrooms versus the living rooms. We don't share how those things are rated, but we do share the the total score. And we have an online calculator we built for homeowners and property managers to go in and say, what if I update my window treatments? How will that impact my lodging quality score? it's a really neat program. We inspect the units every 18 months.
27:52.546 Chris Romer
They're rated on a one to one hundred scale. We share that back with the property owners, with our visitors, with our Central Reservations office, with everybody. And it's it's now to the point, 20 plus years later, that every lodging property is using that scale for their promotion and for their internal use with their homeowners. So it's really been adopted by the entire community and is a really nice revenue driver. For us as well, a six-figure revenue driver every single year. And it's again designed with the idea of meeting the needs of the community, in this case, our guests and our second homeowners, to add value to the to the chamber. So our members have a member pricing for this. We will inspect non-member or vacation rental by owner. markets, not only the professionally managed units, and they pay a higher rate. So there is a a a value to membership with this program. And it's a it's a really nice program that has really nice momentum and at this point has quite a bit of i institutional knowledge and stakeholder buy-in across the board. It's it's a lot of fun.
29:15.054 Brandon Burton
So I love this program. couple of things that stood out to me is you mentioned that really has momentum now. And you had mentioned at the beginning part of this segment that this program's been around for over 20 years now, which made me think that was really before online reviews became popular. You know, all these different vacation websites and things to check out lodging before you get there. You had mentioned your ratings for these lodging in magazines, you were noticing a dip. So kudos to you guys for kind of looking ahead, you know, before waiting for the internet to really take off. And I think yeah, this could have been very different had the internet really taken off before then versus now and it gave you that opportunity to build the momentum, get this program up and going to where now all of these different lodging associ lodging facilities go through this program. what would you say to a chamber that may want to implement a lodging quality assurance program today where they are competing with some of these big online presences. Do you have any suggestions how they could get into that today?
30:26.09 Chris Romer
Yeah, sure thing, of course. And I I think it's it's less competing with than it is offering a more subjective approach or a more ob objective approach, rather. So the if you look at Yelp or TripAdvisor or any of these things, I don't think there's any way for a a local chamber to compete with with Yelp for reviews or TripAdvisor for reviews. But I do think the where this program could be easily implemented and applicable to the local community is is gathering the lodges to give them a consistent rating scale. Where when guests are looking on the DMO website or the chamber website or different property websites, that those properties are using the same language. So property A is not saying we have deluxe superior and pretty average units. And the property right next door is saying we have super duper units and somewhat decent units and units that haven't been renovated for 20 years, and we try not to rent units. You know, so it's to give them the ability and bring your lodging community together to say, Hey, this is an objective rating scale. It complements the Yelps and Trip Advisors where it's user-generated content by giving a consistent thing that the entire community is using, I I do think it's something that could be done and and could be implemented by by other chambers in a in a in a pretty quick pretty quick way. And we'd be happy to share any of that information in terms of the the things we rate and how the program works and and everything. But I I I think it would be complementary to the user generated content. And not necessarily competitive with.
32:26.028 Brandon Burton
That's perfect. And I plan on putting the links to these different programs in the show notes for this episode also. So anybody listening, please go on and check out all these different programs that the Bell Valley Partnership is incorporated and dive in a little deeper, see what they're doing. And Chris, if it's okay with you, and have them reach out to to you guys there and and get more details if needed about how they can get this these programs implemented at their organizations. So
32:54.478 Chris Romer
Of course.
32:55.86 Brandon Burton
If we were to take one action item that listeners can start doing to build meaningful programs at their chamber, what would you suggest?
33:06.658 Chris Romer
I think there's there's that's a two that requires a two-part answer. The first part of that answer, one action item that chambers can do today, is base decision making off of off of real data, off of real community needs. And I guess maybe that that's just the answer, is make sure you're doing the outreach to the business community and you're basing your
33:10.827 Brandon Burton
All right.
33:33.388 Chris Romer
Decisions on programs, on events, on activities at your chamber based on community needs. I think a lot of chambers hear from one person or they hear from their board, we need to do this or we need to do that. And then they launch a program that that doesn't get the momentum or the buy-in from the community, not because it might not have been a decent idea, but because it maybe it doesn't scale. across businesses of different industries or different types, or it was the pet pet project of a board member or a staff member. If you base your decisions on on data and are data informed in your decision making, I think it makes a huge difference in in how these things are perceived by the community and the buy-in that they will do to drive these programs forward.
34:26.666 Brandon Burton
I think that is great, excellent advice to have data informed decisions to help get the buy-in from your members to to participate. Chris, as we look to the future, I'd I'd like to ask all all the guests that I have on the show this question. As we look to the future, how do you view chambers of commerce and their purpose?
34:47.072 Chris Romer
It's a great question. And I I love talking about this because I love this industry. I I love this work. And I think many chambers and chamber executives would would share that similar passion for community and and helping businesses and helping people thrive in their individual communities. I look at the work and the foundational work done by two different groups. One being ACCE, the Association of Chamber of Commerce Executives with the Horizon Report and the Horizon project that looked at the different challenges for chambers moving into the future. And I would also look at WACE, the Western Association of Chamber of Commerce Executives. And as you mentioned, for transparency, I am on their board. But I believe this regardless of that board seat. And what WAC has done is a a full research project around chambers and finding that what chambers really need to do is be catalysts, champions, and conveners. So conveners in their community of leaders, a champion for a stronger business community, and a catalyst to get things done. And I think those those are the chambers that will succeed into the future. those who decide to be a 3C chamber, as WACE calls it, versus a 3P chamber, parties, parades, and pageants. If if chambers are, if their signature event is a golf tournament or a pancake breakfast, they probably won't thrive into the future as much as pro as chambers who are Focused on solving business problems. That can be through programs, that can be through advocacy, that can be through meeting the needs of your community. And that might be different in every community, but the the theme of of of chambers and their purpose moving forward, I think very clearly points towards chambers who are solving problems, will be the chambers that grow and thrive in the future.
37:07.572 Brandon Burton
I appreciate that. And I think you're in good company with that answer about solving problems. That's that seems to be the common theme. So Chris, I want to thank you so much for spending time with us today here on Chamber Chat Podcast. I think you provided some great value, some great ideas with these programs and ways for other chambers to be able to implement meaningful programs that fill a need at their chamber. If listeners wanted to connect with you and ask more Questions about the programs that you have going on at the Vail Valley Partnership, how can they get in contact with you?
37:42.018 Chris Romer
They can contact me however is easiest. I'm easily found on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Twitter, on our contact us page at Vail ValleyPartnership.com. My email, C Romer, R O E R at visitvailley.com. My telephone number, 970-477-4016. and and all of my social media contacts are on there as well. So I'm happy to connect with people in however is best for them.
38:15.32 Brandon Burton
That's perfect. We will update all your contact information on the show notes page as well. And again, the show notes for this episode can be found at chamberchatpodcast.com slash episode twenty-one. But Chris, thanks again for being with us and look forward to everybody putting some of these ideas into action.
38:38.52 Brandon Burton
Thank you for listening to this episode today. I hope that you're finding value as you listen to Chamber Chat Podcast. If you are enjoying the show, I would encourage you to tell your colleagues that are in the chamber industry. Also, please hop onto iTunes and leave us a five-star rating and review to help others find this show. Thanks again, and I look forward to chatting with you again next week.