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Category: Impact

Foundation-Driven Disaster Relief with David Jackson

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Brandon Burton (00:00.465)
Hello, Chamber Champions. Welcome to Chamber Chat podcast. I’m your host, Brandon Burton, and it’s my goal here on the podcast to introduce you to people and ideas to better help you serve your Chamber members and your community. Today’s guest is a dynamic community leader and voice of the high country. David Jackson is the President and CEO of the Boone Area Chamber of Commerce. Since stepping into his role in 2016,

David has transformed the chamber into a powerhouse of regional engagement and innovation. Under his leadership, the chamber launched its own foundation, expanded to over 700 active members, and was recently honored as the 2025 Carolina’s Outstanding Chamber of the Year by CACCE.

David’s work has earned him multiple accolades, including being named Community Advocate of the Year by the North Carolina Rural Center and the North Carolina Main Street Champion. In 2025 alone, he was recognized with the Town of Boone 1872 Award and the Community Inspiration Award from the Watauga Community Foundation. Appalachian State alum and longtime resident of Boone, David has deep roots in the region.

He’s served on the boards ranging from Applecart, I hope I said that right, to the town of Boone Central Resource Development, and even teaches as adjunct professor in the Walker College of Business. David, I’m excited to have you with us today here on Chamber Chat podcast. I’d love to give you an opportunity to say hello to all the Chamber Champions who are out there listening and to share something interesting about yourself so we can all get to know you a little better.

David Jackson (01:40.578)
Yeah. Well, hello friends. I feel like this might be the most niche podcast I think I’ve ever been on. so that’s, that’s exciting. I know I’m talking to people that get it, as, a listener myself, this is, it’s going to be fun. my interesting fact, I was prior to chamber, life, for 16 years was the radio play-by-play announcer at Appalachian state university, for football, basketball, baseball.

I was around for the App State Michigan upset back in 2007. Occasionally you might still hear that play call get thrown out there and I’m the one that’s screaming the softest trying to make sense of what’s going on. My broadcast partner was saying something to the effect of yard sale in the big house during that moment, but I enjoyed long career as a sports broadcaster. I still do some of that work. I do ESPN plus broadcast for App State now as well as.

Brandon Burton (02:14.567)
That’s right.

David Jackson (02:34.956)
Some work with the Carolina Panthers on occasion, just, you know, it’s a hobby rather than a lifestyle. And I found that working in college athletics for as long as I did, there are so many parallels to that work and chamber work. It wasn’t what I was expecting, but it took me about 20 minutes to get into this job and think, this is the same gig. It’s just new people and maybe a little bit less crazy hours.

Brandon Burton (03:00.507)
That would have been a really cool episode for us to go down that rabbit hole. Those comparisons. Yeah. I thought I recognized your voice. Yeah, you’ve got a voice perfect for being on a podcast. So this is fantastic. Well, tell us a little bit about the Boone County Chamber just to give us an idea of the size staff, the type of work you guys are involved with, budget, that sort of thing to set the stage.

David Jackson (03:04.287)
Yeah, there you go. It’s a fascinating comparison, it really is.

David Jackson (03:28.194)
Yeah. Yeah. So, so first off, the Boone area chambers in Boone, North Carolina, we are one of four that we can count chambers that have some reference to Daniel Boone in the name. We get a lot of calls and occasionally some mail for the Boone, Iowa chamber and have developed quite a relationship with them over the years. But Boone, North Carolina is in the Northwest corner of North Carolina, about an hour and 45 minutes, Northwest of Charlotte.

So if you’re looking at a map and you see where North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee all converge up there in the Northwest mountains, that’s where Boone is located. We’ve got a population here of right around 20,000 inside the town, about 60,000 inside the county. And as I mentioned, we’re home to Appalachian State University. They’ve got about 19,000 students here in the area locally, but an enrollment of a little over 22,000 now with a lot of online and graduate programs.

spread really throughout western North Carolina. They’ve got a campus in Hickory, which is about an hour south of here that has recently emerged as well. So this is a very tourism heavy area. It is one that in the wintertime as we record today, we’ve got something frozen falling from the sky and that coincides with really opening weekend for the ski industry here.

in North Carolina. Skiing brings in about $125 million a year to the state’s economy and all of that is really located within a two county area here. In the summertime, we run about 10 degrees to 15 degrees cooler than Raleigh and Charlotte. So we are a tourism Mecca from that perspective. And if it gets up to about 84, 85 degrees in July, people are melting in the streets up here. So.

Tourism heavy economy, about 3,500 feet in elevation for the most part in the county. This is a special place. A lot of folks that live here have the university as a magnet of some sort. It either brought them here, it brought them back here, or maybe was the reason why they wanted to stay around as a local because they’ve been able to get educated and find life here. it makes our…

David Jackson (05:38.934)
mix of businesses, very unique. Again, a lot of service industry, but then a lot of innovation tied to the university as well and the community college system here in North Carolina. So no dull moment, like for many of you that are listening, but certainly a part of the state that is unique and we try to play into that as much as we can.

Brandon Burton (05:57.18)
Yeah, I’m always fascinated with college and university towns where your population fluctuates depending on enrollment and the time of year and whatnot. But it’s its own unique circumstance to try to manage.

David Jackson (06:11.214)
Yeah. And, and, you know, football game days are a big part of the economic driver here. Uh, you know, app state in the good years, uh, they, will miss a bowl for the second time in as many years. And that’s kind of unheard of around here, but, but for a normal game day, they can push up a past 35, almost 40,000 attendees. Kid Brewer’s stadium is one of the highest ranked stadiums in the country for a percent capacity. They usually go well over a hundred percent. think last year they were at 107 % of their capacity.

So, you you pretty much triple the size of the town when they come in and bring all the ancillary fund to that. And those are the six dates that people block off and schedule life around and businesses do the same. know, so those, when the schedule’s released in March, everybody scribbles furiously and then we try to plan everything else around that. But it’s a very big part of the university’s influence here.

Brandon Burton (07:03.631)
Yeah, I can imagine. Man, I’m thinking we should have chosen a different topic, but what we did settle on was to talk about disaster relief and specifically how you guys were able to utilize your foundation to help with disaster relief after Hurricane Helene. So we’ll dive into the details of that as soon as we get back from this quick break.

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David Jackson (07:23.661)
Yeah.

Brandon Burton (07:26.983)
All right, David, we’re back. As I mentioned before the break, we’re talking about disaster relief and how you guys were able to utilize your foundation as a tool to help in that effort. Why don’t you set the stage for us, give us the background and how the foundation came to be and then how you went to implement it.

David Jackson (07:43.238)
Yeah. So first I want to say thank you to a number of chamber colleagues that reached out to our community and communities throughout Western North Carolina during what was an incredibly difficult time for us in September and early October of 2024. As I mentioned at the top, this is a very tourism heavy economy throughout the Western side of the state. Basically from I-77 West, are

the Mecca of the state’s tourism attention for the fall. Because of the leaves and because of the scenic views that you get, you look out over a 45, 50 mile range view at fall color, you can’t beat this location. To have Hurricane Helene’s impact right at the front end of that part of the calendar was catastrophic for us economically. And that’s not just here. Obviously a lot of lenses were focused on the Asheville area. Asheville’s about an hour and 15 minutes to the southwest of here.

And our communities are incredibly interconnected. And one of the ribbons that ties us all together is the Blue Ridge Parkway, which is the most visited national park in the country, stretching from Southern Virginia all the way down past Asheville. That road was decimated by the storm. And in a normal October, you’re talking about hundreds of thousands of visitors that are driving up and down that road and venturing into the small and large communities off the parkway.

on any given day. we saw what was our top month for economic performance get turned off before it ever got turned on and turned completely off. So we had a lot of colleagues reach out and help those that have been through disasters before. We talked to colleagues in Hawaii and Iowa, Florida, Louisiana, all over the country really, that helped us understand what was next in the FEMA process, the SBA process.

We learned very quickly never to schedule your natural disaster in the midst of a contentious presidential election. That was all kinds of bad for all of the reasons you would imagine. Yeah, and we are still going through some of that reorganization of FEMA dynamic and what that meant for trust in our community. This is an area of the state and really of the country that is deep rooted in Appalachia culture. So it takes a lot of time to trust people. And when you’ve got

Brandon Burton (09:42.715)
Make a note of that, yeah.

David Jackson (10:02.712)
people wearing federal jackets and badges running into your community after it’s been turned upside down. That’s not exactly the warm, friendly, hospitality-based response that we normally have. And it’s taken some time to get to that. So I set all that context to say that what we learned in our unique situation is just how much local partners and trusted partners matter. We, back at the beginning of 2022,

We signed a contract with Watauga County to provide economic development administrative assistance for the Watauga County EDC. So we are essentially the backbone of economic development for our county. The previous economic development director had retired from the county. We hired him here at the chamber for his kind of post-government life. And he maintains that same role now, just working for us instead of them.

So at that time, we decided that we needed to start a 501c3 foundation to do the economic development sidecar work. So if we’re going to go buy land or support a project, we need a place to raise those funds. Very similar to every other chamber in America, it seems like. We were one of the last to the party in that regard, but had a lot of help in setting that up. So when the storm hit, our director of communications and I were sitting at a coffee table inside

Appalachian State Student Union. We had no power or internet access at the office and Appalachian State happened to have both because of their robust system and a little bit of self-sustaining ability there. So we’re sitting outside the coffee shop and my director of communications looks at me and says, do you think our foundation might be helpful right now? And we’re less than 24 hours away from the impact of the storm. We’re trying to figure out where everybody on the staff is, let alone what our response is gonna be.

and said, you know, it’s not really what it’s designed for, but yeah, I mean, we know we’re gonna have to raise money for something. We don’t know what that something is yet, but yeah, let’s give it a shot and make it available. Just happened to have a Watauga County commissioner walking by who works at App State. And I said to him, said, Charlie, I think we’re gonna use our foundation as a landing space for funds. And he said, yeah, man, that could get money. I don’t know. Good luck with it. And that was that.

David Jackson (12:22.958)
So we put out on social media, because again, we had internet access, that if people wanted to donate to local causes to support the business community, here was a place to do it. And here was a mechanism for it, got a QR code and got Stripe working. And all of the sudden, before we knew what happened, in about seven days, we had $200,000, a little more than that, that had been raised in five and $10 increments for people all over the world. People that had a heartfelt connection.

to the mountains of North Carolina for whatever that reason happened to be. They may have learned to ski here, went to school here, whatever. They wanted to give back. So we, since then, in total, we’re knocking on the door of about $2 million that we’ve raised since September of 2024 in just hurricane-related disaster funding. We’ve used, and we can talk here in a minute about the variety of ways we’ve deployed that, but I think that…

The lesson learned here is that for all of us, people have a connection to our communities that maybe we feel like we understand, but we don’t necessarily understand it as deeply if we are in the community. What I mean by that is the people that would desire to live next door to you, they want to be back in the place they went to school or that place that’s special to them, they have connections and again, that heartstring pull that we can’t imagine living in that place every day.

It’s that yearning desire to be there and help. And that saved us because it took weeks to get any kind of major substantive funding out of the federal government, from the state government. Those dollars were slow to come. Once they did come, none of them were there for small business support. I think that’s something that we’ve heard echoed around the country. There are no small business grants that are coming from the government to help those businesses that again saw

significant turnoff of their revenues at the busiest month of the year, right? So there was hurting that was going on there and nobody else was coming to help. So that’s kind of one of the lanes that we moved into and we were just heartened and it gave us some pep in our step after some incredibly long days, some that are still going on as a matter of fact, that people care. And that was really the adrenaline that kept us going there for a while.

Brandon Burton (14:40.529)
Right.

Brandon Burton (14:45.019)
Yeah, so questions are coming to my mind. I’m sure they are to listeners as well. So a lot of those listening have gone through the process of establishing a foundation or maybe they’re considering it or maybe they came into their position and was already set up. But when you guys set up your foundation, as far as the documents and everything, your, the charter and whatnot, so what…

David Jackson (14:48.461)
Yes.

Brandon Burton (15:09.908)
How was it set up that allowed you to deploy the funds for disaster relief? Usually it’s very specific what the funds are for, right?

David Jackson (15:14.454)
Yeah, yeah, and that’s a great question. So we set the foundation up to be very vague in economic development support. The reason for that was that we didn’t exactly know at the time that we created it where those levers would ultimately be pulled. If that was going to be, say, in housing support, you know, like everybody, we have affordable housing issues here and we wanted flexibility to be able to maybe buy land.

or donate money to a specific project that we could fundraise. So we didn’t want to go, and some foundations are so incredibly specific, we did want to give some flexibility to work within five core buckets. So like many communities, would imagine housing is one, childcare is another one, workforce development. We have a bucket for our chamber capital needs here to support our business.

And then we’ve got another general fund that allows us to support community events, run our leadership program, things along those lines. So we tried to establish it like that first. The key that came around on the disaster side was that word disaster. And as we raised funds and put them in that general account for community support, we were able to then deploy those funds. Part of that went to childcare. We can talk about that in a minute, but.

the disaster grant program that we’ve run. We’ve run four rounds of a disaster grant program for small businesses over a three county area here, not just Watauga, but Ash and Avery counties as well that border us. And by using the word disaster, you get away from some of the IRS issues there. Those businesses that receive grant money still have to report that, you know, it’s income for them, but it’s cashflow as much as anything.

we were able to put about $1.4 million of the money that we raised into that specific program itself. And then had businesses apply to us over four rounds. Each round had a different flavor to it. And we were able to deploy those grants in the name of the disaster itself. As long as we were a disaster declared county.

David Jackson (17:31.15)
Our accountant said that was the way to handle the language and the flexibility of that community support mechanism was really what helped drive the vast majority of what we’ve done.

Brandon Burton (17:41.349)
Yeah. So that leads to my next question. I was going to ask about how the money has been deployed. so you touched on one aspect of it there. Is there other areas, other ways that those funds have been dispersed?

David Jackson (17:46.776)
Mm-hmm.

David Jackson (17:53.486)
Yeah, so one of the early conversations that we had with our foundation board, you we gathered them about 10 days after the storm. We had money coming in, you know, we had about, you know, $250,000 at the time. So it was, was a good bit of money, more money than we’d ever seen, but also in the totality of, you know, a couple billion dollar storm, not going to move the needle in any one direction very far. So we, we said to them, you know,

We’ve got this money, we need to get it out. What do you want to do? Here are some options. We talked about business grants then, and to give you an idea, the storm hits in late September. This is probably the second full week of October we had this conversation. And so we felt like business grants was going to come. were holding out hope that some conversations around the General Assembly in North Carolina, the governor’s office, Roy Cooper at the time, now Josh Stein, that there were going to be some…

mechanisms far greater than ours that were going to come into play, which never did. But we would hold tight there. And one of our board members said, you know, we ought to be about what we’re about. And we’re about childcare support. We believe very firmly and are one of the state’s leaders in this thought that childcare is an economic development issue. It’s our core economic development issue, access and affordability and the ability for

to support the workforce that supports the workforce. So we said, you know, we knew at that time we had 36 centers, licensed care centers here in Watauga County. All of them were dealing with enrollment issues related to the storm. School system was closed here for about three and a half, four weeks, just in Watauga County. It was longer in surrounding areas. And because of that, people weren’t working. There was fluctuation in need for childcare. There was certainly a lot of cost issues.

across everything that made the expensive childcare bill at the end of the month almost insurmountable. So we said, let’s take about $210,000 of this money and let’s invest it in those childcare centers and let’s make sure that they can be open in November. But we saw that investment as a twofold thing where one, we could stabilize the industry and North Carolina has got a litany of issues with its childcare support mechanisms statewide. That’s another whole episode we could get into.

David Jackson (20:16.237)
But we wanted to make sure those businesses could open again, know, full force when they needed to and that their workforce was supported. But we also thought if we could provide some tuition assistance here, we’re going to free up cash for people that are going through the process with insurance, going through the process with FEMA, and it’s going to take a while for them to get money and they need to make repairs. know, we’re talking bridges washed out, roadways washed out, a lot of those private and nestled into little nooks and crannies in the mountains.

It’s not easy to repair necessarily and certainly costly. So any money that we could free up for immediate needs, we felt like that was going to be a benefit. So we made an allocation to our local Smart Start agency of $210,000 to support tuition for October for everybody that was in a licensed childcare center. They were able to pull some additional money to work that grant off of another grant. And we ended up deploying just shy of $240,000 to that effort.

which nearly covered every student that was in licensed childcare here in the county. We had a few centers that opted out because they had other funding that backed that up so they didn’t want to take money away so we could spread it farther. And we were able to provide that tuition assistance for that first month. And that was a life changer for not only the centers, but the families. And that really got us started. Then we were, because of that success, I think people saw our foundation as a trusted destination for funding. The vast majority of what we got,

In that 1.4, I was talking about earlier, were locally driven funds. We’ve had three allocations from two different large grantors that totaled up about $750,000. So about half of that came from the private sector. And again, small gifts. There was a house party at App State that donated a couple hundred bucks to us from their proceeds. it really got crazy there. But I think part of that was also telling the story of how we were spending the money.

not wanting to toot our horn by any stretch, especially at that time. But I think if you don’t tell the story, people don’t understand what your capacity is. And we wanted to let people know, like we said, if your dollars come here, we’re gonna keep them local and we’re gonna keep them going toward community function. And that childcare allocation was the thing that kickstarted the whole process.

Brandon Burton (22:33.02)
Right.

So you had mentioned that the foundation is fairly new as the storms coming and you saw an opportunity to be able to utilize it in this way. Had you guys raised any funds for the foundation ahead of time? there, I guess, how have you proactively gone about, obviously after a storm happens, after there’s a catastrophe, it’s easier to broadcast that and get people to donate. But for those listening who want to be proactive ahead of time, who maybe already have a foundation,

trying to collect funds and be a magnet so then when it is needed to be deployed, it’s there and ready whether economic development or disaster relief or whatever the need may be. What was your guys’ situation like?

David Jackson (23:19.499)
Yeah, that’s another great question. know, thinking back a little bit, yeah, first off, I wish we had this foundation longer. You know, knowing what we know now, there are so many uses for something like that. And every community’s got their need and their specific set of needs. Prior to the storm, we raised somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000 total.

in the history of the foundation for things outside of childcare. Now in the childcare space, we had been involved and part of the reason why this was the thing that we chose for about an eight year period of time. Now we’ve been involved in a deeper community conversation around that childcare industry support. years ago, before the economic development machine here in Watauga County had a destination for funds, our smart start agency held what was called the

Early Childhood Education and Development Fund. And that was an area for us to take public sector dollars and private sector dollars and merge them into an account where we could pay for various workforce supports within the industry. Once we got our foundation started, the county commissioners actually suggested that we take that fund out of the Smart Start Agency and put it into the Economic Development Support Agency because it was just a little bit cleaner and would eliminate any…

impropriety or thought of that with mission drift of the smart start agency. So it was done to really kind of protect them in a way, but also give us the opportunity to then, because it’s in under economic development, allow other people to see that that wouldn’t maybe necessarily see that fund if it were embedded inside of a smart start agency. So with that, we did end up getting some extra traffic there, but you’re talking about $60,000 a year, you know, with some private donations here and there.

You know, so we were, we were in the, the chump change category, really kind of limping along so much so that we had a part-time staff member that we onboarded in August of 2024, and said, all right, part-time staff member, we’re going to limp along here. We’re going to bring you on for 10 hours a week. We’re going to turn that into 20 hours a week by the time the year starts. And then hopefully by next summer, we’ve got you as a full-time member that’s out there working, trying to grow this foundation. Well, you know, the storm hits and he was full-time by the end of the year.

David Jackson (25:41.422)
Uh, and, continues to be just a tremendous asset for us in all of the grant management and the, the, the amount of paperwork that we had to turn around at the end of 2024, all the 10 99s we had to let fly because of the grants. was a great problem to have, but that was a financial burden on us too. You know, so we, really had to think about on the backside of all of this good, you know, it was, it’s also crippling our staff that was worn slap out at the same time, you know, so.

We’ve gotten smarter with that now. And I feel like if we’re ever pressed into that emergency position again, we’ve got an understanding of what emergency dynamics when it’s related to fundraising look like and how we need to be prepared as an organization. And that, unfortunately, I don’t know that you can really prepare for until you do it.

Brandon Burton (26:31.975)
Great, great perspective. So I always like asking the question, especially for those listening who are trying to take their chamber up to the next level, what kind of tip or action item would you share with them, whether it’s related to this topic with disaster relief and foundations or something totally different, what would you suggest for them in trying to accomplish that goal of taking their chamber to next level?

David Jackson (26:57.589)
Yeah, you know, when you sent me questions ahead of time, this is the one I stood on the most. I think that it’s kind of twofold. know, certainly when, when I’ve been at this chamber for almost 10 years now, and, know, this is a small tight knit community here in the mountains of Northwest North Carolina, right? So relationships are everything. And it’s proving that you can do what you say you’re going to do.

that allows you to get in the next room and to be a part of the next project. you know, coming to this role from a very different role in the same community, I had to earn that level of respect personally that I wasn’t just the radio broadcaster from App anymore. I had some understanding of what this job was about. And then we built a team that could meet the moment in a variety of different ways, all again centered hardcore on relationship equity.

You know, we’ve got a professional staff here, many of them that were App State grads that have those deep community ties. So when something like Helene happens, you’ve got faces that you know, you’ve got people that you trust and you’ve got a track record behind you that will allow you to be at the epicenter of things. know, that Saturday after the storm hit Friday, we were called to a meeting at the courthouse, sheriff, police chief, you know, all the emergency response folks, and we raised our hand.

And we said, tell us how we can help, you know, put us to work. And our track record in previous smaller situations, led the director to say, all right, you guys are in charge of supply chain distribution, which that’s a whole other episode to talk about why you might not necessarily want to get into that business. But, but we had a member with a warehouse and that, it was a pickleball court, actually an indoor pickleball facility that turned into the supply depot. But that was a relationship with that member that, that.

Brandon Burton (28:49.255)
Perfect.

David Jackson (28:54.985)
allowed us to perform in the moment for in a relationship setting that the county needed a resource. And to be able to provide that means that you need those relationships to really be forged on the sunny days. know, every opportunity that you’ve got to make an impact and again, sign up for something that you can know that you can accomplish and do it well for your community that’s gonna make them lean on you. Now the downside to that is when you’ve got that track record, they’re gonna lean on you.

But I think we all want to be in that moment, right? Because we’re all about community support. We’re all about getting our community over whatever that hurdle is. So we had a front row seat to disaster response. It wasn’t something that I ever thought that we would be in position for at that level, but man, I’m glad we went through it because we were able to help our community directly. We showcased some members and their ability to help their community. And I think got some people thinking differently about business here.

certainly got people thinking differently about Appalachian state. They were tremendously helpful with space, time, effort, energy, volunteers, internet, showers, all that kind of stuff. The town gown relationship has been rocky here in the past. It is as good as it’s ever been. And we have been in a position to tell that story from the inside. And I think that’s helped everybody. So just some thoughts, relationships matter much more so than the bumper sticker than we all have on our cars.

Brandon Burton (30:19.993)
Yeah, I love that idea of forging those relationships before, you know, during the sunny days so you can call on them when you need them. So that’s awesome. As we look to the future of Chambers of Commerce, how do you see the future of Chambers and their purpose going forward?

David Jackson (30:26.657)
Yeah, that’s right.

David Jackson (30:37.523)
Yeah, that’s another great question that, that I feel like it’s things like this that, that are going to be as important as, as you know, membership, and, the, the non dues revenue cycles that we all get chased into, because I think members see that reaction. Excuse me. I think that a lot of times our, our work trying to sell our value is really about what we do. It’s not about what we say we do. And when people see an organization like a chamber.

or an economic development organization leading to try to solve the problem rather than trying to sell themselves on being an answer to the problem. The membership takes care of itself. I don’t necessarily see membership eroding necessarily. I think the motivations for membership change. I think people will want to invest at a time where ROI is certainly at a critical point for anybody that’s in a membership related field.

I think that the work you do is going to drive the investment that people see in you. If they see you as a solutions-based problem solver, that’s going to take care of itself. But then what do you do with your organization to make sure that it is always geared toward community support and making the community better tomorrow than it was today? And for some communities, that is to be the party starter, the parade organizer, the fun.

energetic beacon of light inside, know, difficult conversations sometimes. For others, it’s about leading forward with economic development thoughts and all of those types of things. For us right now, that’s going to be about rebuild. You know, this is going to be a multi-year conversation here, thinking about how you take hundreds of millions of dollars that are going to come in and infrastructure support and make sure that your community is better forward. So we’re hosting those meetings. We want to try to be

a part of that, not drive it. We don’t want to own it, but we want to facilitate. And then, you know, we can storytell a little bit. So I think it all boils back down to being nimble, relationships, and understanding that people will trust what you do when they see you do it. And that will take care of the investment that we all need them to make in us. And we hope that they make positively and see the results based on what we can all do for our communities.

Brandon Burton (32:58.565)
Yeah, I love that.

Make the impact, don’t just talk about the impact that you are talking about making. Actually put the rubber to the road and make something happen. So I love that. Well, David, this has been a great conversation. Hopefully it’s one that kind of gets the wheels turning for those that are listening, thinking about what can they do to be better prepared for when disaster comes to their community or hopefully it doesn’t, but you wanna be prepared for it. I wanted to give you an opportunity to share

David Jackson (33:04.045)
Right.

That’s right.

Brandon Burton (33:30.665)
share any contact information for listeners who may want to reach out and learn more about the structure of foundation, how you guys have deployed things, or anything else you’ve touched on. What would be the best way for them to reach out and connect?

David Jackson (33:38.529)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And thank you as well. I’ve listened to so many of these. heard one of our colleagues, Tanya Stevenson on a few weeks ago and that was awesome. Tanya is great. She’s two counties away from me. But yeah, boonchamber.com is our website. We’ve got a podcast as well called Mind Your Business. I encourage you to check that out, learn a little bit about our little pocket of North Carolina.

Brandon Burton (33:49.006)
yeah.

David Jackson (34:04.417)
But in all seriousness, because so many people paid it forward to us, if there is any community in any shape, in any part of this country that is going through something similar to what we experienced, please call us. If for no other reason than to talk to some people that understand and can give you that 10 minutes of levity where you can just let it all out and you may not need anything, you just may need to talk to somebody that’s been through it. So we can help there. We certainly have…

some fresh perspective on what today’s FEMA SBA mechanism looks like and can share some thoughts there. But really we just want to help because so many people helped us, lean on us anytime. BooneChamber.com, come and find us.

Brandon Burton (34:46.437)
That’s perfect. We’ll have it linked in our show notes as well to make it easy. David, this has been great. I hope you feel like you’ve been able to touch on the main points you wanted to cover in this conversation today. But thank you for joining us here on Chamber Chat Podcast for sharing your experience and things that you’ve learned through this process. I think it’s incredibly valuable. Thank you.

David Jackson (35:08.333)
Well, thank you very much for having me.

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Importance of Vibrant Communities with Christopher Germain

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Brandon Burton (00:01.171)
Hello, Chamber Champions. Welcome to Chamber Chat Podcast. I’m your host, Brandon Burton, and it’s my goal here on the podcast to introduce you to people and ideas to better help you serve your Chamber members and your community. Today’s guest is Christopher Germain, CEO of the Lake Superior Community Partnership, where he’s been making waves since stepping into the role in 2022. With a background that includes everything from environmental regulation to urban planning and political communications, Christopher brings a diverse and dynamic perspective to regional economic development. Before LSCP, he spent six years with the Michigan Economic Development Corporation, helping communities across the state through redevelopment ready community programs.

A proud Michigan native and Northern Michigan University alum, Christopher fell in love with Marquette and the Upper Peninsula and has become one of the strongest advocates. His leadership at LSCP has introduced an ambitious, comprehensive economic development model that is tackling major regional issues like housing, childcare, air service, and small business support.

When he’s not working, you’ll probably find him out exploring the natural beauty of the Upper Peninsula, cooking up something delicious in the kitchen, or even logging some time, or even logging some hours in flight training. He shares his adventures with his husband Aaron and their energetic cattle dog, Woody.

Christopher, I’m excited to have you with us today here on Chamber Chat podcast. I’d love to give you an opportunity to say hello to all the Chamber Champions who are out there listening and to share something interesting about yourself so we can all get to know you a little better.

Christopher Germain (01:51.448)
Sure, yeah, thanks, Brandon, for having me this morning. It’s really great to be here. We’re excited about this. know, additionally, beyond the flight training, which is usually the part people find the most interesting about me, you know, I’ve been teaching myself to code video games as well, because I don’t have enough to do, apparently. So that has been a really cool kind of feature as well. But honestly, my dog doesn’t let me do anything that sits down. know, if anyone else owns a cattle dog or a blue healer, they would understand.

Brandon Burton (02:17.321)
right? That’s awesome.

Christopher Germain (02:19.209)
Yeah.

Brandon Burton (02:20.585)
Yeah, the flight training, is super interesting. A friend of mine is a flight trainer. has his own company doing flight training. And last Christmas, I had the idea, I reached out to him, like, hey, would you take my wife and I up to look at Christmas lights? And it was pretty cool to look at the Christmas lights from the sky. But there’s a lot of cool things you can do from the air. The video game coding too, that is interesting.

Christopher Germain (02:26.509)
you

Brandon Burton (02:50.539)
That’s a first that I’ve heard. So is that a, what drew the interest to coding video games?

Christopher Germain (02:58.317)
So I learned it a number of years ago and I kind of lost it. But honestly, what’s re-driven my renewal of it is an old video game from like the early 2000s that they don’t make anymore. And I’ve been trying to recreate it. So I’ve been using Claude and Chat GPT and all those AI coding assistants, you know, in addition to those years of actual school now.

games as best I can. So it’s pretty cool.

Brandon Burton (03:22.259)
That’s awesome. That is really cool. Well, tell us a little bit more about the Lake Superior Community Partnership to give us an idea of the size of the organization, staff, scope of work, budget, just to kind of set the stage for our discussion today.

Christopher Germain (03:38.383)
Yeah, absolutely. So the Lake Superior Community Partnership has been around for 28 years. We’re always say we were an organization that was born out of crisis. So in the mid 90s up here, we had an Air Force base called K.I. Sawyer Air Force Base. They used to launch B-52 bombers from it during the Cold War. And that Air Force base closed in the mid 90s, like a lot of other bases. And so there were three chambers at the time. They all formed into a single chamber called the Lake Superior Community Partnership and started down this path.

towards greater economic development in addition to chamber services. So today we’re an organization that really focuses heavily on economic development but retains those chamber pieces as well. We have 400 members currently, which is about a 30 % growth over the last three years as we’ve really changed our model. A 12-person team, about a $900,000 operating budget, but a multimillion dollar budget when you factor in the grants that we’re entrusted with from our state and federal partners as well. So…

We tackle honestly everything from traditional chamber services like business after hours and ribbon cuttings and breakfast events to a full-scale business retention expansion program, tackle issues like housing and childcare. We do advocacy in Lansing and DC. My friends joke that I’m never home, you know, because we’re always so active doing something, so.

Brandon Burton (04:54.121)
That’s right. Man, yeah, that’s enough to keep you busy there. Luckily, the 12 staff helped to get that done, I’m sure. that’s a…

Christopher Germain (05:05.806)
They sure do, and that’s about a 50 % growth over the last few years. So it’s nice as we’ve grown, our team has been able to grow.

Brandon Burton (05:12.598)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, for our discussion today, we’ll focus the majority of our time around the idea of the importance of vibrant communities and the different aspects that revolve around that topic. So we will dive in deep on that as soon as we get back from this quick break.

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All right, Christopher, we’re back. As I mentioned before the break, we’re talking about the importance of vibrant communities. So what does that mean for you there in the Lake Superior area as far as building a vibrant community? know communities look different everywhere, right? So for you guys, what does that look like to have a vibrant community and what does a chamber do to help facilitate that?

Christopher Germain (05:58.157)
Absolutely. So honestly, I think the test for vibrant community is pretty simple and it’s are you proud of your community, right? Every single community looks different but the first step to asking anyone to invest in your community is whether they see everyone around them believing in the future of that community. And so for some places that’s super vibrant, downtowns with tall buildings and lots of restaurants.

For other places, it’s vibrant neighborhoods, right? Homes that are well taken care of, community organizations that band together, small businesses, right? That really define the community. So up here in Marquette County, which is geographically the largest county in the state of Michigan and one of the largest east of the Mississippi, we have a bunch of different communities. So honestly, what it looks like in the city of Marquette is different than what it looks like on the west side of the county in Ishpemine and Ragani or in Big Bay or in Gwynne, or they’re the places that we cover as a countywide organization.

So, but to give you maybe a sense, you know, of some really great examples of what we think is driving community vibrancy is obviously downtown, right? Areas that people can walk, they’re walkable, the businesses are filled, there’s events. And we’ve seen some really incredible strides on that front that we still talk about here, including the Community of the Year here in Michigan, which is right here in Marquette County, thanks to all of their downtown vibrancy.

Brandon Burton (07:15.067)
Yeah, well, tell us more about that Community of the Year. That’s awesome. you’re right, for building that vibrant community, you do kind of have to have that hub, right? That central gathering place, that downtown, like you mentioned. And there’s going to be a different feel in different communities or different parts of the communities. being able to have that focus and that hub, I think, is important. But yeah, tell us about the award. That’s awesome.

Christopher Germain (07:18.798)
Yeah. Sure.

Christopher Germain (07:41.389)
Yeah, so, you know, the city of the Gani, which is about 10 miles outside the city of Marquette, has this incredible city manager. to give a shout out to Nate Heffron and all the work that he’s done around the community to drive that pride. This idea, again, that the Gani is a community that historically has a mining heritage to it. And a lot of mining communities have struggled in recent years. But when Nate came on board, he was able to harness that community pride that did exist and really leverage it into something else. And so.

using about a million dollars in state grants, they totally overhauled their downtown a few years ago, which has then resulted in this incredible resurgence of commercial and housing developments all throughout downtown. So there’s fire pits now, there’s events, they’re constantly still doing new events on top of everything else they already have. They’ve seen the biggest turnover in commercial investment they’ve ever had in their history as far as they can tell. And there’s just this sense of pride now.

And so the Michigan Municipal League every single year identifies what they call a community of excellence. It’s actually a really competitive award. They name finalists and you actually basically have to lobby for the votes to be named that. And so to get that from a town of a few thousand people here in Northern Michigan, which only has 3 % of the state’s population in our entire Upper Peninsula, is a huge win for us up here. And so we’re really proud of the work that they’ve done, but it’s translated to additional businesses.

additional economic activity that’s still spilling over today.

Brandon Burton (09:07.079)
Yeah, that’s great. So I very much think that in order to have a vibrant community, there has to be good things going on in the community, right? There needs to be jobs. There needs to be a good economy. There needs to be those opportunities to get out and connect with others and to be able to enjoy what the community has to offer.

From the chamber perspective, what are some of the approaches and you guys are heavily involved with economic developments? So what are some of those things you guys are doing to drive the stronger economy there to be able to help, you know, in the end have that vibrant community in a place where people want to be?

Christopher Germain (09:49.187)
Yeah, so ultimately we’re taking a really multi-pronged strategy here. So the core of our work for a long time has always been a business retention and expansion program, of course, which I think it’s important to have your pulse on the business community to understand what those barriers are, not only locally, but at the state and federal level. But in recent years, we’ve really expanded that to really focus on our overall health of our communities. What does that quality of life look like? And so for us, that means tackling issues like housing.

It means helping with the availability of childcare. In a rural area like ours, it means ensuring that we have convenient and accessible flight service. A lot of rural areas might have one or two flights a day. And so that’s not exactly conducive to business. If you need to get out and that flight schedule doesn’t work. And then even for us, we dive even deeper and then we talk about rural healthcare. We talk about energy costs, which are very high in the Upper Peninsula compared to most of the country and how all of that ultimately impacts

how people feel about their community, right? And again, that sense of pride. It’s so easy, frankly, to derail community efforts, right, with the negativity that you can see on social media or that people show up to public meetings. And so working as a chamber to go meet with those businesses, to hold public events, to bring as much from outside, like from underneath, I should say, the paywall, right, a membership of the LFCP and just do good community work.

is really vital to us. And it’s possible because of our public sector partners really coming to the table. I think it’s primarily probably due to our economic development side of the house versus the chamber side of the house. But by combining the two, we’re able to leverage the benefits of both, right, and help our small businesses connect with the public sector and connect with their neighbors and connect with each other. And so they can actually offer their services, you know, in a coffee shop from the art shop down the street.

We see those kind of connections happen too and that drives that community pride too.

Brandon Burton (11:45.384)
Yeah. So what really stood out to me was the flight service and being able to have a focus on that and help bring more flights and more people in. How do you approach something like that? I mean, I think, you know, a flight will come and go as there’s a demand for it is what I would assume, but maybe I’m assuming wrong. So how do you approach that to try to get more flights coming in and out of town?

Christopher Germain (12:04.856)
sure.

Christopher Germain (12:11.116)
Yeah, you know, so it’s interesting for us up here in the Upper Peninsula, we have six commercial airports for an area of about 300,000 people. Now we’re really geographically dispersed, right? So it makes sense that you can’t just have one. But five of those six airports, federal subsidies through a program called Essential Air Service. So program that was set up in the 80s when the airlines deregulated and basically it was meant to help transition rural areas as consolidation happened. They would maintain

Brandon Burton (12:24.691)
Yeah.

Christopher Germain (12:40.142)
critical air service if you were too far away from a hub. It’s become one those programs that has existed kind of into perpetuity, right, whether or not, and our airport actually doesn’t get essential air service because at the time of deregulation, we had two airlines and one of the requirements was you can only have one. And so for us, what air service looks like is actually going to meeting with airlines and doing what we call demand and leakage studies where we actually see what demand is generating in our travel shed and where it’s going.

In our case, we’re actually losing 52 % of the demand that generates in our travel shed to places that are either subsidized by the federal government or folks are driving the six hours to Chicago to take an international flight, which sometimes that makes sense. So we literally go meet with airlines. We do the data studies. We do marketing. And we work directly with our airport to make sure that they’re enhancing the overall experience. in the last state budget,

The LSCP was really the one who put in the request for three million dollar state investment in our airport primarily because we don’t get federal subsidies and we’re now working through how to spend those dollars in a way that’ll drive long-term fiscal sustainability for the airport which will make it more appealing to airlines and I think part of you all of that work we’ve done for years just last week maybe two weeks ago now actually the

United Airlines announced that they’re coming to Marquette-Sawyer Regional Airport, it will be the only airport in the region that has three, all three major airlines coming out of our airport going to Chicago, Minneapolis, and Detroit. So it’s been a collective effort. It really takes a whole village to make that happen, but you just have to stay proactive, sort of the answer.

Brandon Burton (14:21.181)
Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s a great win to be able to see American come in and to be able to open those doors. Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing.

Christopher Germain (14:26.766)
Yeah, we were very surprised but happy. Two years ago, I was out in Utah, sky west, which is one of the biggest regional carriers in the country. We had lost service in Minneapolis in 2022 during the pilot shortage and the plane shortage prompted by COVID. We were able to get it back starting this year and it’s been a game changer for our businesses, especially who have business out west.

They can now hop on a plane in the morning via Minneapolis and make it out to the west coast by lunchtime.

Brandon Burton (14:58.119)
Yeah, that’s awesome. That is, that’s a game changer for sure. So I know you guys recently had a local economic exchange. You want to tell us what that was about and how that plays into this whole conversation of building vibrant communities?

Christopher Germain (15:16.686)
Yeah, absolutely. So we were really proud of this event. It’s been on my list since I started in this role in 2022 to just bring together the public sector, the private sector, our nonprofit partners and have a day focused on solutions, right? We sort of know what our challenges are. And so the whole idea was to bring folks together, talk about how we move the needle on issues like housing and energy and childcare, rural healthcare, all of those issues. And so the day had about 120 attendees, which I…

say for a first time event is a really big win. We’ve had nothing but positive feedback about it. But ironically, you know, people laughed at us a little bit when we started out the day with a data dump, right? Just tons of data. We had the Federal Reserve come and go through their data. We had our own data. And I think we saw some rolling eyes and some confusion, but it really set the foundation really well for folks for the rest of the day. And so between that, from there, we went to an inspirational story from the village of Casapolis, which is an incredible success story here in Michigan.

a small village that just decided enough was enough, right? And they were just going to go after every resource they could go after to make their community more vibrant. And that led to these great breakout sessions and a legislative panel. And so we were just so proud of the events. And in the month since we’ve had it, the momentum has been very real. We’ve had more people come to the table. We’ve had more ideas come out of the woodwork than we can even handle right now. And so that’s a good problem to have.

We’re really proud of it as we move into planning for 2026 and figuring out what are our focus areas. They’ll likely come out of that event.

Brandon Burton (16:47.175)
Right. Now that event sounds like it’s great and really just drawing attention to some of these good things that are happening throughout the region. But at the beginning, as we started talking about vibrant communities, I really liked what you had to say about really creating a place that you want to be. it may be tough to measure, you know, what is, are we a vibrant community? Have we increased our vibrancy? we decreasing? Where are we at? But what are some of those

marks you look at as far as is your community vibrant? it going in the right direction? Is it going the opposite way? What are we doing to help kind of regenerate that excitement and desire to be a part of the community? What are some of those things that you look at to measure that?

Christopher Germain (17:32.921)
Sure. So, you know, I think there’s, yeah, there’s qualitative and quantitative stuff, right, that you can look at. And so I think on the quantitative stuff, there’s some simple things like population growth, right? Are you seeing new housing being built? Are you seeing new students in your school districts? Are you seeing investment, right, in your downtowns your business community? And you can ask your businesses if they’re seeing growing sales because that likely indicates new events or more people coming to those businesses, choosing to spend their dollars locally.

We can look at city municipal tax revenue, right? As well as a really big key indicator of a vibrant community. But it really is that qualitative stuff. I always get those two mixed up. The qualitative stuff that you walk downtown and you see folks, you know, are they pointing to the shops, right? Are they deciding to move events that maybe left the community back into the community? Are people taking ideas that they have and actually finding the other people in the community who also share those and can…

create those ideas. And like one really great example is there’s a group of folks in the western side of the county that are looking to create a Christmas market for the first time ever. And I honestly think maybe five years ago, you would have found a lot of naysayers, right? Who would have said there was just no way this is going to happen. And today that momentum feels so real. And so they had no problem finding people to form a committee and finding partners and finding people to build stalls. And so

it’s that kind of qualitative stuff that is really hard to measure. Economic development, think in general, you we’ve really always measured ourselves based on investment and job creation. And those are really core metrics that we need to have, but there’s a lot more to economic development than just that piece of it. And so I think that’s where community really comes in.

Brandon Burton (19:16.795)
Yeah, I think, you know, we’ve all seen and talking for the people listening as well. We’ve all seen the communities for the downtown is just basically a ghost town, right? Where it’s just depressing. It’s sad. It’s, you know, it hasn’t had any life going on there in 20 or 30 years, maybe. versus the communities where there’s stuff happening, you know, there’s events going on. There’s holiday things. There’s, you know, all these different things that happen and drive people out there.

Christopher Germain (19:30.84)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Burton (19:47.012)
and really build that sense of community. One of those things you had mentioned as far as measuring the growth was the population growth and the housing. I know housing is one of those things that you guys are trying to tackle as an organization. What are some of the approaches? I mean, obviously, you guys are creating a vibrant community because it becomes enough of an issue that the chamber needs to say, hey, what are we going to do about housing? So what are some of those solutions?

Christopher Germain (20:01.88)
Yep. That’s right.

Christopher Germain (20:12.846)
Sure.

Brandon Burton (20:16.655)
the approaches you guys are taking to housing.

Christopher Germain (20:20.014)
Sure, so we could do a whole podcast on this brand and just in alone. And as a trained planner, of course, we have a plan, right? And so we have an eight point plan right now that’s really focused heavily on things like collecting data and educating the public, right? Arming folks who want to say yes in my backyard and showing up and giving public officials cover to approve housing projects. But really there’s some really cool, tangible things that are happening too.

Brandon Burton (20:22.055)
Right?

Christopher Germain (20:45.218)
Marquette County is the first county that we’re aware of, at least similar to ours, that has a dedicated housing specialist. So somebody whose full job is basically to work with developers and work with local government officials to move the needle on projects. And he also happens to be the executive director of our land bank. So we have a kind of a one-two punch there in terms of having two great tools. The LSTP and a number of other partners helped fund that job and our position, I should say initially, and we really…

move forward with that. But we’re also working on things like pre-reviewed housing blueprints. We are collecting data through a target market analysis that shows our market could hold up to 10,000 new and rehabilitated housing units over the next five years. We don’t think we’ll hit those numbers. We think that’s where the market breaks, but there’s clearly a demand for those. And the story I always tell people honestly is

I went to Northern, you in the late 2000s, as you mentioned, the introduction and like a lot of folks, I left after that, not because I wanted to, because I just couldn’t find an opportunity in the field I was in. Ended up in Ohio and spent the next 14 years trying to get back. And in 2022, I was recruited back to this position. And the night before I had to give the board an answer, my answer was no. And it wasn’t because I didn’t want to be here. It was because I literally couldn’t find anywhere to live.

And so it was too hard to move from Grand Rapids. And I had to find something that my husband would also be happy with. And so something, know, a view of the lake and all that kind of stuff. But it is still was, you know, I don’t ever want anyone to have to go through that situation. And we lose far too many northern students who want to stay here or people just in general who want to stay here. And they start to get priced out as second homes get built and as Mark Hat, you know, particularly does get more expensive.

to live in. So that’s really why housing is a critical issue because if the folks who work in our restaurants and run our schools and operate our libraries, right, and public safety and all these folks can’t find places to live, you lose the vibrancy of the community. And so that’s really why we take an issue. And so we have a website, it’s called housingnow906.org that I always tell everyone to go to. Everything we do around housing is there. We’re happy to share it.

Christopher Germain (22:56.418)
We’re really proud of our leadership position on housing because I think a lot of economic developers in general would tell you housing wasn’t on our radar even five years ago. It was somebody else’s problem. And now I think we’ve really figured out that we’re losing projects. We are losing deals and losing expansions because our businesses can’t find the workers that they need to expand. So they’re opting to just not expand. so housing is the real deal there.

Brandon Burton (23:24.883)
Wow. I almost feel like you needed to have that experience of not being able to find housing to really be able to share your personal story about why this is so important. know, the community loses out on talent. Like you said, the vibrancy when we don’t have places for these people to live and be a part of the community. So that’s a, I love that you guys are approaching that and making that a priority there at the organization.

Christopher Germain (23:51.543)
Absolutely. Yeah, it’s necessity. Every meeting I have, Brandon, housing, housing, housing, it doesn’t matter what it is. Housing comes up.

Brandon Burton (23:58.634)
Yeah, and there’s a lot of creative opportunities out there that I’ve heard from different chambers. And each one is unique to their own community. it’s fun to see those answers, those solutions come to pass. Well, Christopher, I wanted to ask for those listening who are interested in taking their chamber up to the next level, what kind of tip or action item might you share with them in trying to accomplish that goal?

Christopher Germain (24:31.118)
So, you know, the thing I always tell folks is chambers should be talking to their local planners, like their local community planners. And you know what? It feels like an odd one to throw out there, but the decisions that your planning commissions and your planners make around zoning and regulatory reform and the future of the community impact the business community. Right. And so having a really deep understanding of those and not having a confrontational relationship with them, I think is really critical to any chamber really being successful.

And again, I say as a trained planner and as a board member of the Michigan Association of Planning. So like I see both of those worlds and I see how planners also don’t necessarily understand chambers very well or economic development in general. so having that dialogue, I think is important. So breakout, right, of the traditional chamber training modules, which are again, very helpful. And I do a lot of those as well, but go to a planning conference, take a zoning course, take something that can really help you understand.

with that other side of the regulatory environment and seeing, and it’ll make you a much more effective advocate for your businesses when you understand.

Brandon Burton (25:36.754)
Yeah, I have not heard that as a tip yet and that is so wise as I think of a chamber executive just being able to understand what’s possible from the community planning standpoint, being able to understand what obstacles they’re dealing with as well, what their constraints are, what their blind spots are, and being able to come to the table and say, here from the business community, these are the things that are important to have a vibrant community. So how can we make these things match up?

and find solutions together, but without having those conversations ahead of time and kind of knowing what those community planners are thinking and what they’re working with makes it really hard to walk into those conversations without having it be a little bit confrontational because you’re coming from perspectives that neither of you understand. So I think that’s such a wise tip. Yeah, I love that.

Christopher Germain (26:29.658)
Exactly. You know, and the example I always get folks brand into is I sat on the master plan steering committee for the city of Marquette and early on we had the set principles, right, guiding principles for the plan. And one of them was to protect neighborhoods. And, my response was like, yes, like I love the area where they live in and I don’t want it to massively change. But if we’re setting out to not change anything, we’re not creating new business opportunities and we’re not creating opportunities for the neighborhood to really evolve in a way we want it to.

And I think it took the business community pushing to change that a little bit. And so it’s a balance, right? But really, our local government partners and planners, not our enemies. They really can be our allies when we understand each other.

Brandon Burton (27:10.589)
Right. Yep, absolutely. Very well said. Well, I like asking everyone I have on the show, as we look to the future of Chambers of Commerce, how do you see the future of Chambers and their purpose going forward?

Christopher Germain (27:27.864)
So I think there’s always going to be this human need for connection, right? And this idea of learning from each other and partnering together. And so I see chambers that are embracing technology like AI to amplify their value for their members. And whether it’s a smarter business listing or taking your networking events that maybe are heavily on networking right now and incorporating an educational component to them, that’s what we did with our breakfast and business series. So it’s not just about having coffee with your friends, but…

you always leave having learned something or met somebody new. That’s where I really feel the future is continuing to evolve in that way, but also integrating economic development. I’ll admit like our structure is very complex and sometimes it is hard to balance the economic development and the chamber side of things. And sometimes quite frankly, they’re in conflict. And so trying to figure out how to balance those two can be really difficult. But I also think if chambers in their local communities have an opportunity to

partner with their economic development organizations to consider some sort of structural marriage, I would really encourage them to do that because I also think that really is the future if you can plan it correctly. There’s a lot of models that don’t work too, but if you can find the one that fits, you’re going to be better off as a chamber working directly with your economic development organization than you are as separate entities.

Brandon Burton (28:45.789)
Yeah, yeah. And there’s no harm in looking to other communities and seeing how they do it and what’s working for them and seeing what those structures look like that are working. All of us have those other communities we look to and maybe want to be a little bit more like and look and see what those structures look like in those communities. So I think that’s a great.

Christopher Germain (28:54.721)
yeah.

Christopher Germain (29:06.956)
Absolutely our model today, I borrowed from someone downstate, you know, and I’m not shy about it. And so it works.

Brandon Burton (29:11.389)
There you go.

There you go. Well, Christopher, I wanted to ask for those listening who might want to reach out and connect with you and learn more about how you guys are doing there, how you guys are doing things there at the LSCP. Where would you point them? What would be the best way for them to reach out and connect with you?

Christopher Germain (29:33.106)
So honestly the easiest way is to find me on LinkedIn. My team jokes a lot that I’m on there more than I am on Facebook and so people can see that. But also you know our website marquette.org so marquette.org has all of our contact information so they can reach out to us directly that way for sure. Yeah I love to chat about this stuff you know I sort of stumbled into this world and like so many of us but I find it fascinating.

Brandon Burton (30:00.551)
That’s perfect. We’ll make sure we get both your LinkedIn account and your website on our show notes for this episode. So we’ll make it easy for listeners to be able to connect with you. But thank you for spending time with us today, sharing your insights, your experience with the listeners here at Chamber Chat podcast. Really appreciate you spending time with us today. I think it was a fun and insightful conversation as well. So thank you.

Christopher Germain (30:14.475)
you

Christopher Germain (30:26.456)
Awesome, thanks for having me Brandon, I appreciate it.

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Chambers as a Lighthouse with Matt Appenzeller

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Brandon Burton (00:00.902)
Today’s guest is a dynamic, I’m gonna start that over. I forgot my intro. Hello, Chamber Champions. Welcome to Chamber Chat Podcast. I’m your host, Brandon Burton, and it’s my goal here on the podcast to introduce you to people and ideas to better help you serve your Chamber members and your community. Today’s guest is a dynamic leader in the world of small business advocacy and economic development.

Matt Appenzeller is the executive director of the Southern Ohio Chamber Alliance, representing 127 chambers of commerce and helping thousands of small businesses access health insurance and other vital benefits. He also serves as plan administrator for the SOCA benefit plan, a statewide medical plan designed specifically for small employers.

Matt’s leadership journey includes serving as executive director of the Preble County Chamber of Commerce, where he spearheaded the creation of the Preble County Economic Development Partnership and was named community leader of the year in 2012. Passionate about cultivating the next generation of entrepreneurs, he also serves as president of the Board of Trustees for the Ohio Business Week Foundation, a hands-on business camp for high school students hosted at the Ohio University’s College of Business.

two decades of experience in sales and management and a proud seven-year tenure in the US Army, brings a wealth of knowledge, discipline, and commitment to service. He currently resides in Cincinnati with his wife Lauren. Matt, welcome to Chamber Chat podcast. We’re happy to have you on the show today. I’d love to give you an opportunity to say hello to all the Chamber Champions out there listening. If you would share something interesting about yourself so we can all get to know you a little better.

Matt Appenzeller (01:52.044)
Well, to share something interesting, I was stationed in Germany before and after the Berlin Wall fell. So I got to see it before and after.

Brandon Burton (02:06.437)
that how long were you there on either end of that mark in history?

Matt Appenzeller (02:10.397)
So I was there for a total of four and a half years and I had been there, gosh, I want to say like two and a half years, two and three quarter years when it fell and then finished out my actually second enlistment from there.

Brandon Burton (02:33.623)
I just, yes, yeah, yeah.

Brandon Burton (03:05.657)
Well, is a that is an interesting fact about you. In fact, just last week I met a German native who grew up and lived his whole life in Germany and talked about, you know, what a significance that was when the wall came down and just a life changer for for the whole the whole area. So very cool.

Matt Appenzeller (03:24.086)
Yeah, yeah, for the, yeah, I think that, you know, the concept of freedom, we all talk about that in our own country here, but, you know, think about a time when, you know, people in East Germany literally risked their lives just to get across the border. And if, you know, there were

It was a militarized zone and they were avoiding gunfire to do it. So that’s how precious freedom is.

Brandon Burton (03:54.989)
Yeah. Yeah, freedom’s a great thing. Awesome. Well, tell us a little bit about Soka. Help give us an idea of the organization, the size. I know your bio talked about 127 chambers that you guys serve, but just help kind of set the stage for what you guys do and who you serve and that scope of work you’re involved with.

Matt Appenzeller (04:17.166)
Sure. So the Southern Ohio Chamber Alliance exists to support Chambers of Commerce. So what we do is we cultivate relationships with insurance carriers, brokers, and other affinity partners so that we can offer cost saving and value added products and services to employers. But we do that through Chambers of Commerce, which helps the chambers drive membership.

and also drive non dues revenue for the chamber. Southern Ohio Chamber Alliance has been around now for, we’re in our, we’re in our 33rd year. I’ve been leading the organization for the past 13 years. know, typically our meat and potatoes is so to speak, has been through healthcare or health insurance. We’ve had a series of partnerships over the years. Currently.

You know, after the, the affordable care act was formed, us and some other interested partners got together to start a self-insured plan for small employers that gave the small employer like the same chance of the self-insured plan that a large employer would have. And Brandon, I got to tell you, it’s whenever I’m speaking about this in front of people.

You know, we thought that this would be a temporary thing until Congress sort of shored up some provisions within the Affordable Care Act as it relates to small employers. And about a year and a half into it, we discovered that, know what, Congress is not going to do anything anytime soon. So we went ahead and put our foot on the accelerator, so to speak, and it’s done very, very well.

It’s actually called a multiple employer welfare arrangement. That’s the legal term of the plan. And we’ve been able to serve over 7,000 employers in that health plan. And it’s a, it’s a privilege to be able to offer that kind of value. And we’ve gotten now, including our approximately, you know, 130 chambers, we, we have chambers throughout the state who also participate in that with us. And so,

Matt Appenzeller (06:40.024)
We’ve got about 275 chambers of commerce in Ohio that are helping with the distribution of that plan.

Brandon Burton (06:46.981)
When I think of over 7,000 employers and then break that down to the number of employees and families that that affects, that’s huge. That is a huge impact.

Matt Appenzeller (06:55.882)
It is. It is. We’ve been hovering around, you know, 50,000 employee lives for a really long time. And like you just said, I mean, it’s a big number and it’s a privilege to be able to do it.

Brandon Burton (07:16.771)
Well, for our topic of discussion today, just a little bit of background for listeners, Matt and I have gone back and forth on some emails and LinkedIn chats and different things. And I think even at ACCE last year, we talked a little bit, it was, Matt’s had some pretty neat ideas that we’ve gone back and forth about. He’s working on a new book right now where some of these ideas are going to be flushed out even more. But I’d said, you know, it would be good just to get you on the podcast.

and we’ll talk about some of these ideas that you’re trying to get out there and more normalized in the chamber world and shine a light on it. So we’re gonna kind of be all over the place, you know, throughout this conversation, but it’s all gonna be chamber focused and it’s gonna be all about improving the impact that a chamber can have. And we’ll dive into this as soon as we get back from this quick break.

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All right, Matt, we’re back. As I mentioned before the break, we’re gonna dive in on all things Chamber. So I mentioned you’re working on a new book. I don’t know if you wanna start with kind of what the book’s focus is gonna be on or if you wanna dive into some of the specifics. Do you have any preference?

Matt Appenzeller (08:19.273)
Awesome. Let’s do it.

Matt Appenzeller (08:33.247)
Yeah, well, let me start by, you know, kind of just laying out how it got started, right? So I used to spend a significant amount of time on the road visiting chambers. Now we’ve hired someone to do that, but…

Over the 13 years of not just me doing that, but the other two people on our staff, between the three of us, we’ve got about 50 years of chamber experience, right? And we see the same four problems that local chambers, you know, they end up having, they experience them over and over and over. And so I wrote this paper called the four critical challenges facing local chambers of commerce today.

And, you know, somebody said, I can’t remember. think it was somebody on my staff said, you know, you don’t just write a book. I actually think I said that and she said, yeah, you kind of should. And so we just sort of expanded the ideas from there. And, and here we are, right. I, it’s this, writing a book as I’m finding out as a, as a huge undertaking. sometimes it’s very enjoyable and sometimes it’s not.

but we’re just trying to get the word out. one of the things I see Brandon is we see changes in leadership at these chambers of commerce. And I know that with your background, you have seen it also. they just ended up recreating the wheel, right? Before the next change in leadership. And so if we can put some…

literature out there that maybe helps to reduce that and helps to point chambers at least in the maybe in the right direction or at least points out what problems that they’re going to face and how to avoid them well then I feel that we’ve we’ve put out a valuable product.

Brandon Burton (10:42.061)
And you’re right, I’ve seen it a number of times and people will join the chamber because they like the chamber president, the executive, know, there’s something, some connection there or the salesperson that sold them was really good and they really liked that salesperson but then that salesperson gets hired on at another business in the community and that member fades away, you know, once renewal comes around because that salesperson’s not there. So being able to get to that core value of what the chamber does,

Matt Appenzeller (11:04.568)
That’s right. That’s right.

Brandon Burton (11:12.005)
the chamber is going to be in the future, I think is so critical to be able to retain that purpose for chambers and how they operate and being able to help ingrain that in their membership.

Matt Appenzeller (11:27.046)
Absolutely. And, you know, we recently had a conversation with one of our guests on our podcast that, you know, he says it’s all about relationships. Well, and he’s right. He’s right. It is. And when you have these changes in leadership, you know, those relationships get interrupted and then they have to be reconstituted. And it just, is very difficult for a chamber to have.

some moment gain momentum if they’re constantly having those leadership changes. So that in itself, now that I’m on it, that is one of the four critical challenges, you know, facing chambers of commerce is leadership and specifically the changes in leadership.

Brandon Burton (11:58.928)
Yeah.

Brandon Burton (12:14.233)
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the aspects that you talk about, that we’ve talked about, and I know you’re addressing in the book as well, is you have this really intriguing analogy that you’ve used between lighthouses and lampposts. Do you want to tell us what that, what your background, what the analogy is all about and how chambers can take that home?

Matt Appenzeller (12:36.717)
Sure.

Matt Appenzeller (12:43.454)
Absolutely, absolutely. So let me start at the beginning of that, right? So one of the things that think chambers really need to do is to have the right mindset on who they are as a chamber. If you’re just going to be this community organization or if you’re going to be a beacon of light, right?

And one of the things, as you know, has occurred in our profession is there’s this emphasis on the word relevance, that chambers need to be relevant. And I’m going to take exception to that, right? In fact, I do take exception to that. I think that, well, let me tell a story. I’ll do it that way. So I’m…

doing some work on my laptop and my wife is next to me on the couch and she’s watching one of the entertainment shows. I think it’s the extra with Mario Lopez and whatnot. But anyway, this aging celebrity gets on the show and is pitching their pet product. And my wife says, well, look at so-and-so just trying to be relevant again. And I thought to myself, boy.

Brandon Burton (13:52.941)
Ouch.

Matt Appenzeller (13:56.018)
Yeah. mean, is this where we really are? I mean, is this where we really are with change? Are we really like aging institutions just trying to remain relevant again? If that’s the case, we need to stop talking about setting our sights on being relevant and we need to start raising our sights to having an impact. So I say all of that.

Brandon Burton (14:17.965)
Relevance almost a relevance a point of desperation almost so

Matt Appenzeller (14:21.87)
It seems that way. we want to take chambers from relevant to impact. And so we drew the analogy of, hey, do you want to be a lamp post? Well, that’s being relevant. You’re just shining a light on a little square or a little portion of the public square. Or do you want to be a lighthouse where members and the community are looking to you for direction?

And you are being the spotlight. You’re not trying to be in the spotlight. You are being the spotlight for your community. So which one do you want to be chamber? And that’s why I say chambers of commerce. One of the very first things they need to do is just think about the mindset that they currently have. If it’s centered around relevance, I’m here to tell you that’s way too low.

Brandon Burton (15:12.665)
Yeah, yeah, I would totally agree with that. And as you were talking about the lighthouse shining the light.

I see some correlation even with Dave Atkinson’s book, Horseshoe vs. Chess, where he correlates the, running a chamber is like playing chess, where each piece is a different part of your community. You’ve got tourism, economic development, school district, city, all these different entities. And as a convener,

Matt Appenzeller (15:28.344)
See, mm-hmm.

Matt Appenzeller (15:37.806)
That’s right.

Brandon Burton (15:45.534)
a chamber should be shining the light on the different chess pieces. So that lamp post, not lamp post, that lighthouse rather, as that light’s going around, it should be shining on those different chess pieces each time it goes around. So I love the analogy. It really resonates for me. And hopefully those that are hearing this, hopefully it’s turning on a light in their minds as well as to what they can do.

Matt Appenzeller (16:09.358)
Well, thank you. And I try to outline that in the book as best as I can. I guess readers will have to tell me if it resonated with them. But the analogy is clear. mean, just don’t think that we can settle for just, you know.

shining a light on this small area. We need to be the spotlight and be that leader where people literally look to us for direction. The world is changing very rapidly now. we need to be able to use, chambers of commerce need to be able to use their convening authority, as you mentioned, to do just that and to be that beacon of light for their community.

Brandon Burton (16:58.723)
Yeah. And I think if you are operating as a lamp post, I mean, I don’t want anybody to feel bad, but you you’re, missing the mark. I mean, it really, if you’re, if that’s all that you’re focused on, there’s a lot of other parts of the community that need attention and it will really take your chamber to a place of impact. So I love that. This kind of transitions us to the next thought that I wanted to address with you is,

Matt Appenzeller (17:16.866)
That’s right. That’s right.

Brandon Burton (17:28.407)
So some chambers are operating as a lamppost, and some have caught the vision and they’re operating more as a lighthouse now.

I know it’s been an issue for you. I’ve recognized it as well, but how can a chamber?

see how they’re measuring up. How do they compare to other chambers amongst their peers? I know ACC has their annual benchmark survey, but what percentage of chambers participate in that? So that’s a problem in and of itself, but I know you have some thoughts about trying to measure and see the performance of your organization compared to others.

Matt Appenzeller (18:01.602)
that’s right

Matt Appenzeller (18:11.468)
Yeah, yeah, that’s right, Brandon. another one of the four critical challenges that we’ve said is that in our profession, there is a shockingly low amount of industry standard metrics within our industry. Now, ACCE does a great job of collecting data and publishing it every year.

I guess one of my concerns is that no one really knows about it. Well, there’s actually two things, right? Number one, I’m not sure that they’re getting enough participation in that. And then number two, once it is published, like no one really knows about it unless you’re a member. And so…

Matt Appenzeller (19:01.678)
It renders the data almost irrelevant because if no one’s seeing it, right, if not enough people are seeing it. So an argument that I make in the book is that, one of the things as you know, and Dave Atkinson outlined this in his book. And so we need to get away from the saying that says, if you’ve seen one chamber of commerce, you’ve seen one. Right. Because.

That I believe is harmful to the profession. What chambers need now is to be able to have metrics and not myths, right? Every chamber can be measured on a certain amount of standard metrics. We recently developed a scorecard for chambers that we actually are just rolling out this week. And we…

are measuring chambers in on seven data points across three broad categories. Those broad categories are membership growth, financial strength, and revenue composition. until chambers, especially the smaller chambers and brand again, you have experience working with some of these smaller chambers and smaller communities, right? I think one of the biggest problems is, is they don’t know how they’re

being against their peers. And so they, they, kind of choose this strategy is maybe this working and maybe this strategy and, they don’t have any benchmark. That’s right. That’s right. And so with, if you have standard metrics, industry standard metrics, you can isolate where those strengths and weaknesses are within your own organization. And you can build up the strengths and you can also, you know, begin working on those weaknesses as well.

Brandon Burton (20:41.005)
It’s a lot of guessing. Yeah.

Matt Appenzeller (21:02.176)
So that’s what we’re trying to do here. We’ve got a kind of got a small audience to work with. Hopefully we’ll gain some traction with it, but I’m confident that if we just persist, we will.

Brandon Burton (21:15.375)
Yeah, as you mentioned with the ACCE benchmarking surveys and the results and the whole reason that I started this podcast is trying to help those chambers that are underserved that their board doesn’t allow for them to have the budget to participate in their state association or ACCE. So as those results come out and they’re a struggling chamber that needs to know what these standards should be, what they should measure themselves against, and they don’t get access to these

reports because their board doesn’t allow them the budget to do so it just perpetuates the problem and we need to be able to help get it out and I think you know with these areas that you’re talking about measurement for those should be standards across different chambers and it still allows for the autonomy for chambers to address the needs specific to their community while still having those the standards to work with.

Matt Appenzeller (21:48.024)
That’s right.

Matt Appenzeller (21:52.772)
That’s right.

Matt Appenzeller (22:12.046)
That’s right. Let me give you an example. Let me give you an example and I don’t want to give too far off track, but like, okay, let’s just take, you know, let’s just take Richardson, Texas, which I know is kind of near you in the North Dallas area. And I don’t know if Richardson has a chamber or not. I’m just saying that, right? Okay. Okay. So I mean, if you declare yourself a chamber of commerce in Richardson, Texas, then what that chamber probably has done,

Brandon Burton (22:29.241)
They do, yeah.

Matt Appenzeller (22:40.346)
is they’ve put a boundary around their service area. And so you’ve automatically restricted your market area. So I don’t think chambers understand the significance of doing that. Like any business out here, you wouldn’t do that. You wouldn’t draw a boundary around where you would sell your product or service. You would try to expand it as far as you can.

I know that we do that for a reason, but you got to understand how that impacts the bottom line by doing that. within that, let’s say that we determine for a chamber of that size that the standard market penetration rate is, let’s just say it’s 28%. And Brandon, you’re running a chamber and I’m running a chamber, right?

So Brandon, in your chamber, let’s say we both have the same goal of increasing revenue by 15%. Your chamber is running at 20 % market penetration. So we know that you’re already eight points below what the average is. Well, operationally, your choices are very clear. You just need to increase your sales effort, which will increase membership dollars.

and probably sponsorship dollars because an increased number of members. Now, on the other hand, if my chamber is that 36 % market penetration rate, and I’m already eight points over what the average is, it would be a really bad business decision for me to do exactly the same thing you are. And that’s why we need to have metrics, these standard metrics, because depending on where you’re at,

Brandon Burton (24:25.881)
Yeah.

Matt Appenzeller (24:33.332)
in the spectrum of things, you’re going to make different business decisions about where you’re

Brandon Burton (24:40.877)
I love that perspective of being able to see where to allocate resources. I think you’ll still, I would imagine you’ll have your outliers who are way ahead of the pack that are gonna bring that industry standard up higher than, you know, mess up the curve for everybody. But it does help to see where to align your efforts and focus to be able to meet those goals.

Matt Appenzeller (24:57.838)
That’s right. That’s right.

Matt Appenzeller (25:09.57)
Yeah, and hopefully we’ll be able to create cohorts to where those outliers are with the other outliers. And at least they can be compared to each other, right?

Brandon Burton (25:16.407)
Yeah, that makes, yeah, yeah, I like that. And as far as the geography goes, you see a lot of chambers that are starting to address that in their name at least, being the using Richardson, maybe the greater Richardson or the Richardson area chamber. So it’s not just that geographic area, but branches out a little bit, but.

Matt Appenzeller (25:41.422)
That’s right. That’s right.

Brandon Burton (25:42.992)
To your point though, in today’s world, as a business owner, you’re not gonna limit yourself, especially with websites and just the online presence. Anyone in the world could be a potential customer. So as a chamber, why would you limit? And chambers have websites and a lot of them you can join members, join the chamber, can even do sponsorships through their website oftentimes. So why would you limit it? So, yeah.

Matt Appenzeller (26:08.664)
That’s right. That’s right. There’s something to think about it because it does impact the bottom line and the long-term viability of your chamber.

Brandon Burton (26:17.315)
Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to touch on the other two areas and just highlight those a little bit?

Matt Appenzeller (26:25.038)
Sure.

Yeah, so let me back up with the four critical challenges. We say that two of those challenges impact all chambers, and those are the pace of technology and industry standard metrics. The other two challenges only impact some chambers because other chambers have actually solved that problem. And those challenges are leadership and complacency.

Now, if we start with technology, we are living in a really strange time as it comes to technology. mean, it is coming at us in waves. And everybody, think, is having difficulty keeping up with that challenge. But as it relates to chambers, if

If you’re not keeping pace, if you’re not modernizing, if you’re not standardizing, optimizing, or using, if you’re using outdated technology infrastructure, you know, it’s hard for your members to have confidence in you because they’re using that stuff while you are, right? So I know it sounds like keeping up with the Joneses, but that’s just the reality of where we’re at right now as it, as it.

comes to technology.

Brandon Burton (27:51.312)
So on the technology front, I’ve.

You know, obviously with AI, there’s people of different camps and different, you know, different thoughts around it. But, um, to your point, if you’re not using the latest tool sets, if you’re not using the latest technologies that your members are using, that, puts you at a disadvantage. It puts you at a place of, you know, maybe not knowing what you should know to be able to help the business community. Um, but all of your chambers, you know, have the pushback of, well,

Chambers are all about the relationships and if we rely too much on AI Then we’re not building those relationships and having that human touch with our members How would you rebut that? What would your thought be with that?

Matt Appenzeller (28:41.42)
Well, I would say that first of all, the next phase, as far as I understand, the next phase of AI is that it’s going to be into the agentic phase. And so you don’t just have to be using AI for communications. You can be using it for other parts of your operation to do tasks for you that help you save time. But I would also say that an interesting proposition here is I know of at least one chamber that is considering

using AI to make retention phone calls, right? Because that agent can work for them in retention 24-7, right? And so I think that chambers of commerce will need to explore every possibility on how this can be used and what works best for them.

Brandon Burton (29:35.813)
Yeah.

And obviously, you know, the caveat is it comes with training. comes with, you know, being able to give a scope for the AI agent to do, you know, what you want it to do and to not just be another, you know, spam call that you get the filter through. But so there’s all that to deal with. But I think you make a great point that the businesses in your community are using these things to save costs, to be able to stay competitive. And we need to as well as chambers, as an industry, we need to do it to show

Matt Appenzeller (29:46.147)
That’s right.

Matt Appenzeller (29:50.593)
Right.

Brandon Burton (30:07.016)
Not just that we’re relevant, but that we see where the word things are going where the puck is headed, right?

Matt Appenzeller (30:11.214)
That’s right. can’t be a lighthouse for AI at least in what all your other members are using when you yourself are not using it.

Brandon Burton (30:23.331)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to touch on? I know we’ve covered a lot and there’s a lot still to go, but what else stands out for you?

Matt Appenzeller (30:31.971)
You know?

Well, there’s just a lot of ground here. And so I would say just in one of the other areas, as far as complacency goes, I think that in some of these smaller chambers over time, what ends up happening is, I don’t think it’s like a conscious choice. I just think that they have mission drift that over time, you know, they have somehow become, you know, rather than the chamber of commerce, they become like the

the chamber of charity or the chamber of community or the chamber of civics, as one of my colleagues used to say. And then there’s also this sort of hesitance, hesitancy to have an impact on their community because having an impact as a leader in your community means that yes, you do need to stick your neck out there and.

Sometimes people are not going to take too kindly of that. Yeah. So you just got to understand that, you know, impact makes waves. That’s a kind of the point we make in the book that, you know, you can’t shy away from it. I mean, it’s just part of the territory. This is Sue. This is the role that you’re in as a leader and as a chamber. And if you want to make an impact in your community, you are going to make some waves.

Brandon Burton (31:33.325)
It burned a little bit,

Matt Appenzeller (31:57.912)
So I’m just making you aware of that, right? You can’t shy away from it.

Brandon Burton (31:59.312)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can’t lead a chamber just to make friends, you know, it’s gonna, it’s gonna make some ways for sure. It’s a great note. Well, Matt, I like asking everyone I have on the show, especially on behalf of those listening who have that desire to take their chamber up to the next level. And I would say even to be a chamber of impact, what kind of tip or action item would you leave with them to try to accomplish that goal?

Matt Appenzeller (32:06.21)
That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.

Matt Appenzeller (32:30.35)
well, I’d say just actually two things. First of all, again, back to technology, make sure that you are modernizing, standardizing, optimizing. That’s really important in today’s day and age. I know it’s coming at us fast. I know that you may make a decision now about a product and all of sudden the technology changes, you know, three weeks later, but you just kind of have to roll with it. The second thing that I would just say is that, you know, if people would

If they have ever read ACCE’s original Horizon Report in 2025, you know, they talk about catalytic leadership and that’s the kind of leadership that your chamber needs where you are the people who are initiating change, not just the one that is helping them cope with change, right?

And so I think that that’s the kind of chamber, the most successful chambers are going to be the ones who are doing that.

Brandon Burton (33:37.541)
Love that, not just to help them cope with change. The chamber of counseling, right? Yeah.

Matt Appenzeller (33:41.334)
Those aren’t my words. Yeah, mean, yeah, I mean, those aren’t my words, but those that comes directly out of the report. I highly encourage people to read that and also read the follow-up report for 2035.

Brandon Burton (33:51.385)
Yeah.

Brandon Burton (33:57.562)
Yeah, awesome. Well, Matt, the other question I like asking everybody, and I think this is going to be particularly on point with our discussion today, how do you see the future of chambers going, the future of chambers and their purpose going forward?

Matt Appenzeller (34:16.536)
Yeah.

I think a lot of that is gonna be dependent on where technology takes us, right? I see.

smaller chambers coming to the realization that they’re going to need to merge simply because like the industrial era is kind of over, right? I mean, I’m not gonna say it’s completely over, but you just don’t get a lot of new building as much as you have new technology that is driving commerce, right? And so,

And so I think in some of these smaller communities where they may have been bedroom communities and a segment of their population, you know, drove to the next county and that’s where everybody worked. And now those jobs are no longer there. I just think it’s the prudent move for them would be to consider merging with other.

smaller chambers within their area and just forming regional chambers and doing it that

Brandon Burton (35:30.019)
Yeah, yeah, definitely could be some value in doing that and obviously, know, assessing the needs in your community and see where that technology takes us. It’ll be a fun ride for sure. Well, man, I wanted to give you an opportunity to share any contact information or anywhere you’d like to point anyone to that might want to learn more about these concepts you’re talking about or connect with you and where would you point them and direct them?

Matt Appenzeller (35:37.602)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Appenzeller (35:41.55)
That’s right. That’s right.

Matt Appenzeller (35:58.702)
Sure, well, you can go to our website at joinsoca.com, joinsaka.com, or you can send us an email at info@joinsoca.com. If you want to learn more about the scorecard or maybe some of these other concepts, we’d happy to share them with you.

Brandon Burton (36:19.055)
Very good. We’ll make sure those are in our show notes as well. So it’ll be nice and easy to find and click on. But Matt, this has been great having you on the show. I look forward to the book coming out and getting it out there is another core piece to the chamber library that all these chamber leaders out there should have.

Matt Appenzeller (36:39.827)
Yeah, so just one more point on that, know, Dave Atkinson challenged all of us really like to have this dialogue and that’s really all I’m trying to do. I mean, I personally think that we need more literature out there because we just don’t have a lot. So that’s all I’m trying to do is just make a contribution to our profession before my time is up. Right. So thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

Brandon Burton (37:06.943)
Absolutely, it’s been my pleasure.

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