Apps for Chambers with Joe Duemig

This transcript has been lightly edited for readability and to correct obvious transcription errors while preserving the meaning of the original conversation.

Episode 119 — Apps for Chambers with Joe Duemig
Clean Speaker-Labeled Transcript
Guest: Joe Duemig
Automated QA: Passed

00:00.842 Brandon Burton
This is the Chamber Chat Podcast, the show dedicated to chamber professionals to spark ideas and to get actionable tips and strategies to better serve your members and community. And now your host. A big family.
00:20.908 Brandon Burton
Brune. Welcome to the Chamber Chat Podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Burton, and it is my goal to introduce you to people and ideas to better help you serve your chamber members and your community. You're joining us today for episode 119. And I have Joe Duemig with us from App My Community. Joe has been a developer with a focus on user experience for 20 years. Working for companies as large as State Farm, Oracle, and Caterpillar to companies as small as a 200-person startup before starting his own business. Joe's education and experience was a great foundation for the partnership he would form in life and business. Along with his wife Rose, Joe co-founded App My Community, which provides Eat Shop Play mobile apps for chambers that aid in engaging with community and generating non-dues revenue. Joe, I'm excited to have you with us today on Chamber Chat Podcast. If you would take a moment to say hello to all the chamber champions out there listening and and share something interesting about yourself so we can get to know you a little bit better.
01:30.826 Joe Duemig
Hi, thank you for the introduction, Brandon. I'm very happy to be here with you today. Joe Duemig, owner of App My Community. And as Brandon mentioned, I've been a technologist for the majority of my life. but interestingly enough, I've also spent all of my almost all of my adult life in a more rural setting. I live about an hour west of St. Louis in a small town called Troy, Missouri. And even before that, I lived in other rural areas of Missouri and Illinois. I live with my wife and what's most interesting about me, I guess, and it's kind of new now is or different now, is we have six children. so my oldest is only eight years old, and we have five little girls and a six-month-old baby boy.
02:12.577 Brandon Burton
my goodness, you've got your hands full.
02:16.046 Joe Duemig
They they keep it very fun. but between that and having a four year old business, it is definitely a a very busy household. And right after school it's a very loud household.
02:27.712 Brandon Burton
Yes, I can relay I have four. So you know, ranging from seven to fifteen. So once they you know get involved in some of those extracurricular activities, just hold on.
02:41.9 Joe Duemig
Yeah, we're ready. We just entered the foray into sports. So our two oldest are on a softball team and luckily they get to be on the same softball team together. So and that's been a lot of fun.
02:53.026 Brandon Burton
Yeah, that's great. Well, share with us a little bit about your company. You mentioned four-year-old company. tell us a little bit of background about it. So kind of set the table for some some background as we get into our discussion.
03:07.96 Joe Duemig
Yeah, so about four years ago, we went on vacation to Rapid City, South Dakota to visit my father. while we were there, we stayed at a really nice RV resort. it was a great time. We all enjoyed ourselves. but there were four distinct instances where we felt that there was a lack of communication. so we kind of discussed that with other resort members of that particular place. and we realized that we could probably solve this issue with a mobile app. You know, people always have a phone with them. And so they always have that ability to interact. and so on the 14-hour drive back from Rapid City, instead of me driving, Rose drove and I started writing my writing code that would be App My Community. about two years after this, so so that app was focused on RV resorts. about two years later, we realized that our community could really benefit from the same service. basically, an RV resort is a really, really small town. So they have a lot of the same needs and features that a town would have. so we went ahead and made one for the town ourselves. and then we just shared it with friends on Facebook. And that was the entire marketing we did, and it grew pretty fast. And then about six months later, we spoke with the chamber of commerce and they took over management of the app. And so that's kind of what transitioned our foray into doing other communities as opposed to just our villagers.
04:36.928 Brandon Burton
All right. I think that that helps a lot with the background, especially as we get into our topic today, which is about apps for chambers. But we will get into our discussion as soon as we get back from the short break. Are you looking for a year-round affordable and timely shop local campaign for your chamber or CVB? Look no further. Build a custom Eat Shop Play mobile app with App My Community by visiting https://appmycommunity.com/chamberchat. App My Community mobile apps are not just simple membership directory listings, they provide many more capabilities to engage with your community. Provide your residents with a robust events calendar. Partner with a local fair, festival, or farmers market to provide a schedule, map, and other resources to promote the event. Run a small business Saturday campaign any time of the year using built-in scavenger hunts. Allow your membership to communicate directly to their customers via push notifications. Your App My Community mobile app will be a unique member benefit. Allow you to generate non-dues revenue with sponsorship opportunities, and best of all, provide a valuable resource to your community. Please visit https://appmycommunity.com/chamberchat now to receive 10% off your first year of an App My Community mobile app. All right, Joe, we are back. And as everybody just heard from that our our little sponsorship there, Joe and and his company App My Community, they are our new partnership sponsor for chamber chat podcast. And I'm grateful to to have this partnership with Joe and Rose and great people. But I wanted to to bring him on here so everybody could get to know him a little bit better, get to know a little bit more about the company than what you just hear in the little sponsorship read. But the the idea of of apps for chambers, you know, my background being in chamber publishing is more
06:45.718 Brandon Burton
I mean, there's a digital component to it, but it it's more of the print material is kind of traditionally what what we think of. But there's always the the constant discussion of chambers trying to stay relevant. And you know, as we move into the future and and keeping keeping themselves kind of in the forefront of the minds in their community. So I think as we look at the j the generations that are coming up, you know, some of the older generations kind of aging out and in retirement and so forth. I think looking for digital options becomes very important as chambers try to stay relevant moving into the future. So, Joe, I wanted to get some of your thoughts as you are talking with different chambers and trying to help them adopt a newer technology for them. What kind of things you see in their communities, what the needs are for going digital and specifically with an app?
07:46.06 Joe Duemig
Yeah, so well one of the things you did mention there was changing demographics. that was kind of that's been a big surprise to us. as I mentioned, we did RV resorts before. And the demographics are not of of usage is not exactly what you would think. the older demographic and older demographic uses apps pretty heavily. there's it's surprising how how much utilization we get from 55 plus. even 65 plus in in app. So I don't think that just changing demographics is there. but in talk in talking with chambers, basically what we're seeing, especially over the last year, is people, you know, doing things well distantly, right? And so a way, you know, it's gonna be hard to give out newcomer guides if your office is closed, which as many were. where you instead you can point them to a digital representation. You know, a lot of chambers brought up Facebook and use Facebook groups as a very tremendous opportunity for them over the past year. and this is just kind of to that next level because with when you're using apps, it's on the next level because with Facebook, you have to hit the user at the right time. you know, the the user, your post and the and your businesses message have to hit all at those right times for for that easier to get engaged. Whereas with mobile apps, it's it's a little more instantaneous.
09:20.652 Brandon Burton
That's right. And I know, I mean, I've I've mentioned before here on the podcast, more so as I talk about, you know, helping chambers get started with their own podcast, is it's the same kind of thing. We're a podcast you can subscribe to and you listen to it at your own time. You're not being interrupted, if you will, during your day as you're trying to just scroll through Facebook. I think you know, people hop on their phones and and look at social media to kind of tune out. They're not doing it to become actively engaged in something where if they're opening your app and engaging in the app, they're making that choice. They're going to it to seek something and to to be engaged and and find something in their community.
10:02.382 Joe Duemig
Right, right. And there's also another side of that is something like push notifications, you know, instantaneous communication. So if a if a business would like to have a, you know, a pop-up happy hour that afternoon, then people that care about that business would get notified right away. And so it's if not one of those things where, you know, they have to post it a day in advance. So people are scrolling through Facebook the night of so that they're there the next day. they can do things a lot more instantaneously.
10:32.18 Brandon Burton
And one doesn't have to replace the other either. You know, they could they can do a Facebook group and the app and you know, they they can hit on all these different areas to make sure they're getting the coverage and and I think that cross promotion is gonna help with users on every platform as well.
10:50.486 Joe Duemig
Yes, it would never be I well, I wouldn't say never, but I we don't that we definitely don't see apps as a replacement for a Facebook page. People that engage with technology differently. each person uses it in a different manner. And Facebook is, you know, ever present. It's always around and people will be using that for the foreseeable future. And it's a marketing channel, you know, it's it's a it's a place to easily grab people that hadn't thought about looking at something before. so I mean, we have all of our customers use Facebook to promote the download of their app, you know, to begin with, so that they can then go and have that more direct communication.
11:28.536 Brandon Burton
Where if they have that Facebook group, that really helps to to promote the app. exactly. Exactly. Another thought I had as you were going through that that response there is you know, with an app, you essentially control the material. Where when you're in essence playing in somebody else's sandbox, if you're yes, you know, you need to play by the rules of of Facebook or Twitter or YouTube or any of these other platforms, for any any given reason they can say that you don't, you know, comply with their community guidelines and they can, you know, ban you or give you the boot or whatever. I mean, we've seen examples of that, you know, plentiful this these the last year or so. Where an app, yeah, go ahead.
12:10.925 Joe Duemig
Right.
12:14.368 Joe Duemig
Well, they definitely have control over the content. there we have a little bit of that with Apple and Google have to have to have their own things, but they're much more, you know, it's definitely not the same with the community guidelines on Facebook. But then also if you have a public Facebook group, you have a lot of moderation that you have to be concerned about with other users commenting or, you know, posting something that is inappropriate for that group. And so, you know, this the other thing with this is there's not that sort of moderation. but in terms of controlling content, at least for our apps, I don't know about other ones, but the chamber can be in full control of all the content, or they can give sections of control to a specific local business or a specific club and organization like the Rotary Club or Kiwanis Club, or even you know, Parks and Recreation in town that have their own little section that they manage over the end.
13:09.598 Brandon Burton
So I imagine if you if you had a a mobile app for your chamber, you could have various plugins for different components. I would imagine I don't know how complicated you want to make things because I know you know the more cookie cutter it can be, the better, but there's gonna be some level of custom customization going on. But if somebody had a really robust Facebook page, Facebook group, and they wanted to somehow tie that into their mobile app, I would think there's probably away. Maybe I'm just speaking totally out of turn, but I mean you can speak to that, I guess.
13:43.04 Joe Duemig
Yeah, so for us, we definitely have the flexibility of going back and forth between them. our our apps are extremely flexible. but we like you said, the more quick cookie cutter, the easier. We give we give a guide to start with. You know, we have us groups of businesses to put in and things like that. But under each listing, each business listing can be a link to a specific Facebook group, or in your play section could have a link to your Facebook group. know or a social media set of links. But yes, it's it's kind of just like you said, there's different things that you can plug and play, whether it's business listings, forms for people to to come and register for an event, an event listing, or even categories that can help you promote and work with the local fair.
14:38.112 Brandon Burton
Yeah, I think that helps to kind of get a an understanding of of what can kind of go into that platform as you you know, the the term I'm using is is using plugins. If you may may not be the right terminology, there's there's probably a a better term.
14:54.838 Joe Duemig
So I was with that, I was just working with one of my clients in Farmington, Missouri. And they the chamber hosts a large event called Country Days. And so we actually put a section in their app that has a map of Country Days where each stage is. People can search for where there's restrooms and it'll show them right on the map. they can see the parade route, they can see the sponsors for each of the for the parade, for the midway for for the stages. they can see each of those, they can get their lineup, and all of that is in its own section.
15:35.064 Brandon Burton
So that just opened up an idea for me. And maybe you guys have already explored this, but as you do, as a chamber has an app and they partner with a local fair or farmers market or something where there's a map showing where different points of interest and things are. I mean, you could have signs posted at the at the fair saying, you know, download this map for or download this app for a map of, you know, the fair and where the different booths and vendors are and things like that. I'm I'm trying to think into the the user space. How do you how do you promote the app for the the user experience?
16:12.14 Joe Duemig
Yeah, so definitely. We we actually provide for all of our customers QR codes directed to download the app, single links that if they click on it on a phone, it goes to the correct store to download, marketing images with an image of the app to kind of do that. And so whether it's placing rack cards, partnering with the local gas station and placing a rack card there, or one of our clients talked about having. some of the local restaurants put a QR code to download the app on their receipts. and so, you know, those are extra ways to get people to download the app, other than just posting on social media. But for those those particular events, you know, in the, you know, partner with the fair to have them post the information, like you said, so that, you know, people can actually interact with the fair a lot easier and hopefully spend more money at the fair and have a better time. So definitely, definitely we offer some of those tools and that would be a great way to have our
17:15.977 Brandon Burton
So and then those users that go to the fair and download the app, they've become a user. And as long as they have the app on their phone, then you have a way to connect and and do the push notifications and that sort of thing for the next community event or something to to draw more engagement to, which I see as being a huge value. Correct. So I know with the with chambers specifically, they have a a board that they report to. whenever there's a A change necessarily. They typically will have to take it to their board and say, here's what's being proposed. This is why we want to do this. Here's the benefits from it. And I see some of those benefits as being very obvious, as being able to be in better contact, serving the community, getting the face of the chamber in the community in a different way, where the common person in the in any given community might look at the chamber as being strictly business. and not realizing the impact that the chamber has to each individual living within their community. So how would you suggest a a chamber goes about implementing a change like adding an app for their organization?
18:31.126 Joe Duemig
Well, so it depends on if the question is more geared toward the board. So if it's like the board's gonna be concerned about well, what's the benefits and monetary benefits as well. So so in regards to monetary benefits, we actually are in the process of building a large sheet of different ways to monetize an app. so some of those, some of the simple ways of doing it is.
18:41.806 Brandon Burton
Speak to both, yeah.
18:58.424 Joe Duemig
We have splash screens every time the app's open. So one of our clients, a mortuary in town, bought the entire app for the next two years. And every time the app's opened, it has a an advertisement advertisement for their mortuary. And so they've actually paid us. and then the chamber, any other advertising they sell, they will end up recouping. so that's kind of splash screens, and you can have a bunch of them that rotate. banner ads are available in each section can be different. And then the listings for Chamberman.
19:33.494 Brandon Burton
Let me let me make sure I understand that right. So that the mortuary basically sponsored the app for so they're covering the cost to the chamber of getting the app up and developed and out there. And then any additional revenue is gonna be all revenue to the chamber. Is that correct?
19:52.532 Joe Duemig
Right. Yep. So and that's in that particular case. some others might sell four or five different splash screens that rotate each time someone opens it. And so that way, you know, they might even end up having more than that paid for just from that sponsorship. Okay. most of the most of the prices that I've seen for that, if they had five, it would more than fit. Yeah. and then as you go into it again, you have banner ads, which aren't very similar except they're just listed on certain pages throughout the app. So maybe a particular barbecue restaurant wants to be called out in the barbecue section. They can advertise that. Other things that they've done is their levels of what they actually display for a business inside of the app. So maybe all chamber members get a listing that has a call map and website button. But then if you go to another level, you have a description and an image. And then you have a link to if it's a salon, they can go to the book now. And so they can go right to the salon's booking site. and so that they might charge extra for that. Or if they can manage their own setup or send push notifications to people that favorite their business, that might be another extra charge. And so it's just other ways for that business to communicate. And so each chamber does it slightly different on. who gets included at which level.
21:22.634 Brandon Burton
Okay. So I think that helps to answer the the financial question when trying to present this to a board and say, here's what kind of what the upfront cost is going to be, here's what the the recoup cost and and future non dues revenue looks like going forward. and then how do you how do you suggest that this gets presented to a community to get the buy in from the the average citizen in the community?
21:50.444 Joe Duemig
So by far, the biggest thing that is going to add value with a mobile app is events. is you know, you're going to get a lot more downloads and a lot more utilization of an app if you can provide them a way to see what's going on in town. You know, our town is about 15,000 people. we're about 20 miles away from the next larger town. As far as I knew, there was not much going on in our town on average weekend. Then we started managing the app and started importing all of these events into it. There's 20 things going on every single weekend. We could probably stay busy all waking hours if we actually went to all of these different events. We just had no idea they existed. So most of these are in the Facebook events, but I don't think people realize to go there unless they're advertised for them or shared by somebody else in the community. And so this is a real way to get all of the events out in front of people and see what's going on in the community. And so it's going to drive more people to your chamber sponsored events, but also be that service to get them out to the other events. So that's that's that's the number one. And so once they have the app, they see all of the other areas. You know, if you just have a membership directory app, people will say, well, why wouldn't I just go to Google and search for what I'm looking for? You know, because the otherwise it wouldn't make sense. But then when they go in here for the event and they find all these other sections and think about, you know, well, there's a section here for bakeries, I'll find one in there, and they go to one of the chamber member bakeries instead of going you know, somewhere else, or in a lot of rural towns, go to the next larger town. we have we were just going going over this with our chamber, and there are a lot more. businesses than even we knew existed in fact as we're going through the process.
23:45.11 Brandon Burton
Yeah. I think you hit on some some key key areas there. And and I know as I've been around, you know, different chambers and different communities, I've seen, you know, some chambers that have mobile apps right now. And and as I access them and look at them, and not to knock anybody, you know, any of the the apps that are out there, but some of them just are like you had mentioned, an online directory in essence of of their membership. Which is on their website already. So I was always kind of confused. Why did they spend the money? Why did they go through the headache? If I mean, not that it has to be a headache, but you know, that you went through the process to create an app that does what your website already does. It just didn't make sense to me. So being able to have an app with more robust features that really has a reason for the people in the community to use it, I think is so key.
24:40.054 Joe Duemig
Exact exactly. Well, and on top of that, with the directory, having a way for those businesses to communicate directly with their users. So when a certain business that has that level, they can come in and a guest can or a user can click favorite on the business. And then that business can send just them push notifications, just those people. So, you know, you you favorite your salon, and then they had a, you know, they're always booked, a salon's always booked. Well, They have a last minute cancellation, they can send out a push notification to all of those people saying, in a half an hour, we have an opening, you know, come on in. And so that's just it's a benefit for the end user and it's a benefit for the salon to fill those empty spots. And so with just a straight directory listing it, you know, it's you really can't do that.
25:31.202 Brandon Burton
Yeah. Well, and that could open up a whole nother discussion about different ways to communicate, you know. Any anymore with caller ID and stuff. People are not picking up the phone if you're not plugged in their phone book. They're not, you know, answering emails because you get a million of them each day. You know, all these traditional ways of communicating have become harder to kind of get through those filters. So to be able to have a new way to communicate with having these push notifications directly to your customers or potential customers is huge. I mean, I think that's such a g a a key selling factor.
26:06.414 Joe Duemig
Well, and one of the things you touched on there was, you know, people, it's hard to break through that. Well, one of the reasons that we actually limit it, so you have to favorite the business first is so, you know, we don't want your residence to be inundated with notifications. So it's only the ones they ask for. that way everybody is getting the messages they need and only.
26:28.568 Brandon Burton
Yeah, I think that is that's important. We don't want to just spam everybody for sure. Right. so just maybe take a couple of minutes and let us know if if there was a a chamber out there, which I'm sure there's several chambers that are exploring the idea of of creating an an app for their chamber, if they were to reach out to you, what would the process be like? maybe in just a couple minutes summary of kind of exploring their needs to final product. What does that look like?
27:00.034 Joe Duemig
Yeah, so I would say honestly it's fairly it's a lot quicker than you would expect. what we normally give a chamber in terms of timeline is we say about a month, it can be completed. And so if as long as they're managing their chamber directory, either in we've gone as far as some of the big bigger management systems to as small as we just use a spreadsheet. we can import that data and And import the businesses in. So the first thing what we'll do is we'll go through and talk about categorization. So where on the app, you know, eat shop play. And then a lot of our customers will add a live works stay option as well. And so, you know, where are they going in here? This is this is going in eat winery or eat bakery. And so they'll go through and categorize that those sections. And so we we work with them. We've some of the bigger CRMs, we know kind of the process to add that data in. And then even with a spreadsheet, they send it to me. I do some things and I send it over and say, okay, here's an easy way to add your categories. So then after that, I will import their data in. While you know that process is going on, typically one of they will have gone through an hour-long training with us, which is the app's pretty easy. So that's typically all people need. And then they'll go into the admin console and start adding things that are not in the directory, like local hiking trail. local biking trails, you know, points of interest, museums, things like that, they'll go in and put in themselves in the play section. so once all of that's done, we're pretty much ready to go. you know we need some images and then it's about time to live. And so that can all easily take place in a month. You know it just kind of depends on how long it takes to do that categorization.
28:53.684 Brandon Burton
All right, that is pretty quick turnaround time. That's quicker than I expected. And granted, you know, it's a two-way communication. So, you know, you as a chamber listening, if you want this turnaround in about a month, you got to participate. But yeah. So I'd like to ask you, you know, as we start wrapping things up here, what would be one maybe key action item or takeaway that you would suggest for?
28:57.87 Joe Duemig
So I figured so.
29:09.783 Joe Duemig
One hundred percent, yeah.
29:22.39 Brandon Burton
a chamber champion listening that they can do to help take their organization up to the next level.
29:27.694 Joe Duemig
Well, so one of the biggest things that I always suggest to our clients is to really think about branding. so many times you'll see chambers that have some sort of resident-facing platform. And you know, it might be an app, it might be a Facebook page, and they'll call it chamber of commerce. And so, you know, coming at it from somebody that five years ago was not a business owner, if I see something titled Chamber of Commerce, I assume that's for businesses, not for me as a resident or a visitor. So, like a couple of weeks ago, you had April Bragg on with the Robins Chamber and she named her Facebook group Robins to Go. And just like her, I believe that that name goes a long way in gaining the traction with residents and visitors. if it was just called the Robins Chamber of Commerce app, they would think it's maybe a membership management app for their the businesses to use to update their listings, which are which is also common. So branding would be. Right. Number one thing.
30:28.204 Brandon Burton
No, I think that's important. I mean, people people charge charge a lot of money to teach people how to brand correctly. So that is a key thing. so I'd like to ask this question to everyone I have on the shows. As we look to the future, everyone's always kind of thinking about the future of chambers of commerce. So how do you see the future of chambers and their purpose going forward?
30:51.746 Joe Duemig
Yeah, so I I'm not as well versed in this area, but I would say that I I think I see them taking on an even wider role in the CVV, CVB type of spaces, you know, where they're not just advocates for the small businesses, they're advocates for the town, you know, helping foster relationships directly with residents and visitors, be it through events, be it through tourism around town, and doing all of that helps build the businesses. And so I I just see them getting a little deeper into those.
31:24.492 Brandon Burton
I think that's a great answer. Great answer. And obviously it depends on on where you're at as far as a chamber and and what your your responsibilities are, but that definitely fits in there. well I know you have a generous offer for our you know, chamber champions that listen to to chamber chat podcast. If someone wanted to reach out and connect with you and explore the idea of of creating an a mobile app for their chamber. What would be the best way to reach out and connect? and if you want to share the offer with them, feel free to do that as well.
32:02.68 Joe Duemig
Yeah, so we're we offer 10% off first year for customers of chamber or listeners of chamber chat. and you can, I mean, it's really easy to get started. You can email me at Joe at armstrongsoft.com. or even better, would we go to https://appmycommunity.com/chamberchat. from there you can kind of see a little bit about what we do. and there's a link there that says build your own app today for free. And you can put in your your city's name and build an Eat Shop Play app and kind of start seeing how easy it is to go and manage an app yourself. And then from there we can move that over and foster it into your own environment.
32:46.7 Brandon Burton
That is awesome. I will I'll be sure to get your contact information and that link updated in our show notes for this episode, which will be found at Chamberchatpodcast.com slash episode one nineteen. But Joe, I'm been it's been a pleasure having you here on Chamber Chat Podcast. excited about our our new partnership as well as a a sponsor for the the podcast. And I hope everybody You know, reaches out to Joe and at least, you know, nothing else to check out what he has to offer because I think this is a way of of staying relevant and moving forward into the future as a chamber of commerce. So Joe, thank you so much.
33:25.698 Joe Duemig
And thank you very much for having me today, Brandon.
33:29.216 Brandon Burton
If you are a Chamber professional, please subscribe to Chamber Chat Podcast in Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify. When you subscribe to Chamber Chat Podcast, new episodes will show up in your podcast app each week as they are released. If you're finding value in this podcast, please leave us a rating and a review in iTunes. But most importantly, please share Chamber Chat Podcast with your colleagues that are in the industry.
34:05.624 Brandon Burton
Would you be interested in creating even more value from the processes that you're already doing on a daily basis? Swipe It has been one of my sponsors for Chamber Chat from the beginning. Swipe It provides credit card payment solutions that will save your chamber up to 40% on your processing fees, and Swipe It can integrate your credit card processing seamlessly into your existing membership software. Swipe It does not charge chambers to switch. And they will make switching simple. In addition to these savings, Swipe It has an affinity program for Chambers of Commerce so you can earn more non-dues revenue to support your budget. Learn more about Swipe It by requesting your free cost savings analysis and become more profitable today by visiting https://chamberchatpodcast.com/cc as in credit card. Again, that's https://chamberchatpodcast.com/cc. And you can join many other chambers as you begin swiping with swipe it.