Global Chamber Index with Houssem Eddine Touil

This transcript has been lightly edited for readability and to correct obvious transcription errors while preserving the meaning of the original conversation.

Episode 120 — Global Chamber Index with Houssem Eddine Touil
Clean Speaker-Labeled Transcript
Guest: Houssem Eddine Touil
Automated QA: Passed

00:00.842 Intro Voice / Brandon Burton
This is the Chamber Chat Podcast, the show dedicated to chamber professionals to spark ideas and to get actionable tips and strategies to better serve your members and community. And now your host at Chamber Mixers. He drinks Diet Coke. He's my dad, Brandon Burton. Welcome to the Chamber Chat Podcast. You're joining us for episode 120, and I am your host, Brandon Burton, where it is my goal to introduce you to people and ideas to better help you serve your chamber members and your community. Our guest for this episode is Houssem Eddine Touil. He is the president of the Tunisia Estonia Chamber of Commerce and founder of Clecow, which we will get into more detail about his company. But Houssem started his career by the age of 22 as a digital communication executive at the Tunisian Trade Union for Industry, Commerce, and Handicrafts, which is the largest private sector representative in his country. Counting over 600,000 businesses of all sizes. It was later on awarded the 2015 Nobel Peace Prize. He also landed consulting gigs with regional and continental trade unions and federations. After holding several positions within the chamber industry as an employee, consultant, and active member, combining over 30 million businesses across 22 countries and three continents. He helped launch the in 2019 the Tunisian Estonia Chamber of Commerce, which is a bilateral chamber between Tunisia and one of the world's largest digitally advanced nations, Estonia. He has been on a mission to digitize the 400-plus-year-old chamber industry for the past six years via his chamber-focused digital consulting firm, Clecow. And recently,
02:06.334 Brandon Burton
launched as of May 7th, the Global Chamber Index, which is a crowd-sourced digital publication which unveils not only the most pressing challenges faced by chambers of commerce worldwide since COVID-19 onwards, but also the upcoming trends in the industry. Houssem, I am excited to have you with us today on the Chamber Chat podcast. I've been looking forward to this discussion and some of the findings that you've come across in this global chamber index, but Why don't you take a minute to say hello to all the chamber champions out there and share something interesting about yourself so we can get to know you a little better?
02:45.42 Houssem Eddine Touil
Sure. Thank you, Brandon, for having me. And thanks everyone for tuning in. Really looking forward to going through some insights from the Global Chamber Index 2021 edition. So, as a fun fact, I have started the chamber when I was 27. And I had someone told me at that time that I'm I might be actually the youngest chamber president in the world, or maybe at least one of the youngest. I have absolutely no clue about that. so I'm two years I'm two years older now and not sure if this is still the case. So I really hope that some younger entrepreneur has actually taken the lead from that. So as you already mentioned, tech is a bilateral chamber between Tunisia and Estonia and was founded in 2019 with some industry and technology luminaries serving on its board. We are mainly focused on institutional level. for for now and especially for know-how transfer and studies. Since our different economic stakeholders are deploying efforts to digitize the public services, the economy, and so on. So why have you why have we started this chamber with Estonia? So there's a lot to learn and implement from small country with one of the highest number of startups per capita, where over 95% of its public services are online and whose eGov technology is implemented by countries such as Japan, Germany, and Finland, among others. And actually just went through their website once again. I think right now they are they are over 99% of their public services are online. So yeah, so there's a lot to learn from that. Maybe to give more context also about what I do besides the bio. So I've been in the chamber work, let's say, for seven years. so I joined by the age of 22. the trade union, like you mentioned, wasn't really the best time for someone kid to really kickstart their early career. but I impressed the chaos at the time. And I got a lot of help of my peers and managers. And so I had no other choice but to learn faster. So we were going through tough times on the political and social economic levels.
05:09.122 Houssem Eddine Touil
Which hopefully ended quite soon. Months later we were co-awarded the twenty fifteen Nobel Peace Prize as part of the National Dialogue Quartet. so the National Dialogue Quartet served as key mediator and riding force to peaceful democratic transition in Tunisia. for those of you who who probably have lost concept to this, we had a revolution in twenty eleven. In 2014, we have held our first ever democratic elections. So the Quartet comprises four key organizations in Tunisia. So my former employer, the trade union, and then the labor union, the the human rights league, and the order of lawyers. As a reminder, the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to the Quartet, so not to the four organizations individually. yeah, so since then. I went on to more adventures, as you already mentioned earlier, by dedicating my time on my chamber-focused digital consultancy firm. So basically we work with with trade unions, chambers of commerce, and other business-driven organizations. for the next few months, we'll be announcing a new project called Clecow. Which stands for connecting local ecosystems worldwide, which is going to be let's say, like a very modest master plan to help take the chamber industry to the next level and make it a unique node in the global trade, which has been already the case, actually already for over four centuries, but this time it's going to be scalable, faster, and disruptive. So stay tuned.
06:54.534 Brandon Burton
That is a huge vision. You've got your work cut out for you. That that is amazing. so tell us you're you're actually the first international chamber interview that I've had on the podcast. so you're located in Tunisia yourself, right? Okay. So Okay.
07:17.122 Houssem Eddine Touil
Yep. Tunis is the capital. Yeah.
07:22.11 Brandon Burton
And I think I know we've had discussions before, you know, hopping on this podcast, but I I find your your chamber, your organization there so fascinating because it's so different than what we see here in the United States with chambers. do you want to take just a minute to maybe highlight some of the differences of how your organization is set up and functions versus how you've seen, you know, organizations in the States?
07:47.626 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely, yeah. That's a great question. so first, actually we have been virtual since our inception. So so right before COVID nineteen and remote work and and so on. So but why have we started that way? Because here in Tunisia business happens mostly like f like pretty much elsewhere in the world. So it's face to face.
08:15.446 Houssem Eddine Touil
We meet each other, we talk with each other, we have lunch with each other, we we we go in the in the same conference room, we shake hands and so on. So people are more like visual and they want to see each other like often like it's presence that that counts. but but actually for Estonia and have some experience with them, basically everything runs online. So the adoption rate of technology and remote work actually precedes us, like let's say many, many years ahead of us. So what I want why we have we created it like virtual right from the beginning, it's because we wanted our Tunisian peers to be able to adopt that that technology technology adoption first. to meet with other people to doing business with their Estonian peers. Yeah. So this is why we've done virtually right from the beginning. for there are actually similarities between both countries. actually we complement each other in in many ways. maybe later on I will go quickly through the differences between chambers in here and in the US. So we complement each other like They have like a lot of R and D innovations, but basically as a small country, they go outsource a lot of their technology implementation to other countries. And this is something that Tunisia is actually a champion of. So we we have the world's biggest companies here who have set up even entire ecosystems for aeronautics, for car manufacturing and and so on. also for technology. So we're mainly focused on technology companies. this is why we we are promoting more our startups to the Estonian scene or the Estonian venture capital scene because we do like a lot of venture capital funding unlike the US
10:30.348 Houssem Eddine Touil
the UK, Sweden and even Estonia itself. So yeah, we have had already a very famous Estonian company set up shop here and they do have like very high market share in the country in in their respective field. So yeah. What's the difference between us and many other US chambers? So this is actually This is one of the main reasons why we have created the Global Chamber Index. I've talked to you before, I've talked to many other chamber leaders or providers in in the US. And most of the time it's the US chambers, they are on many levels. So there are many chambers on the local level, on the state level, and also on the national level. for us here it's more of sometimes on stall state level but state level chambers they are basically public law chambers so most of the time they're affiliated to the trade ministry for example or the international development ministry in some case for other countries. also chambers in at least I could say of my country I'm not gonna talk about other countries of course We look a lot like European chambers because of history of trading together and many other ties that we have together. so we chambers are more focused on international commerce, on international trade. So when you have someone who said our chamber has just 100 members, it's because they do have 100 SMEs. And each one of them is doing many, many millions of dollars of revenue. They have factories, they have offices overseas and and so on. in the US, you find this, but you also find many, many chambers on the local level, like in towns, in cities, and metropoles and so So yeah, that's that's that's that's very rich in the US. We were like very impressed.
12:53.87 Houssem Eddine Touil
And we have also discussions with other chamber professionals in in other places like in Africa and the Middle East and in Europe. And we we often say that chambers in the US are very, very unique. so so I actually I'm not very sure about the actual number of chambers in the US. So sometimes w we read it's over six thousand, sometimes we say over seven thousand. just because they don't have maybe like very unique identification system you can start them maybe as a 501c6 for example or 501c3 but in other countries you some chambers do actually have an identification system. So you when you start a chamber you're not gonna say all right, I'm going to start an organization. You say I'm going to start a chamber. In our case, we look a lot like the US in in Tunisia. So state level chambers, they are public law chambers. So they they refer to to the government, but bilateral chambers which just like ours, we are just an an organization which calls the ch itself the chambers of commerce. So we we don't have many for now. we're not like the US for example. We have seven seven state level chambers and some of them are regional chambers, so they they represent many states at the same level. and for bilateral chambers it's about twenty six bilateral chambers. In some countries, Being part of a chamber of commerce is not an option. So just like you you look for someone for your bookkeeping or you rent an office or you declare your taxation, you have you actually have to be part of chamber of commerce. But here you have the choice. maybe you could be you could join the trade union or you could join
15:18.528 Houssem Eddine Touil
any chambers of commerce that you deem important to you or to what you're you're what you're doing. So yeah.
15:25.634 Brandon Burton
That's awesome. I I know that's not necessarily our topic for discussion today, but I find it fascinating to to see how things work in other parts of the world. And and even, you know, for those who may not be as familiar with geography, Tunisia and Estonia are not even neighboring countries. And you guys are are making this work as a bilateral chain for so but for our discussion our our topic for our discussion today will be focusing on you know some of these the I guess the process and results. that you've come about through conducting this global chamber index. And we'll get into that discussion as soon as we get back from this quick break. Are you looking for a year-round affordable and timely shop local campaign for your chamber or CVB? Look no further. Build a custom eat shop play mobile app with App My Community by visiting https://appmycommunity.com/chamberchat. App My Community mobile apps are not just simple membership directory listings, they provide many more capabilities to engage with your community. Provide your residents with a robust events calendar, partner with a local fair, festival, or farmers market to provide a schedule, map, and other resources to promote the event. Run a small business Saturday campaign any time of the year using built-in scavenger hunts. Allow your membership to communicate directly to their customers via push notifications. Your App My Community mobile app will be a unique member benefit, allow you to generate non-dues revenue with sponsorship opportunities, and best of all, provide a valuable resource to your community. Please visit https://appmycommunity.com/chamberchat now to receive 10% off your first year of an App My Community mobile app. All right, Houssem, we are back. as I mentioned before our break, we'll be talking about the Global Chamber Index. So tell us what that is, why you decided to conduct this global chamber index, and we'll we'll get into a discussion around that.
17:36.052 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely. So the so the Global Chamber Index just like I mentioned earlier, we we really wanted to know what Chambers of Commerce have been doing worldwide since COVID nineteen onwards. So we have created this unique publication. So it it's it's a report, it's not like a very usual report, academic academic report but we have decided to include two main things in it. First it's there is the survey so the results of the survey we can read some numbers first then we'll start detailing by sections and examples if you want so the best way to figure out maybe details about this is to go to chamberindex.com And find more in detail by the regions and results. So we wanted to crowdsource the efforts of Chambers of Commerce Worldwide and other business-driven organizations. We wanted to know what they have been doing, their challenges. Did they gain more members? What was their retention rate? We wanted to know also maybe some ratios, maybe like their women-led businesses. we wanted to know their membership base. I know this is not the kind of information that many chambers share. So we we asked them like select list between this and this. we also wanted to know to have some unique insights based on their geographic level or geographic focus. So we wanted to know where they are based in the world. and what was the type of their chambers. We'd go with some numbers very shortly, but for our methodology, it was survey-based and then interview-based. So we had many, many, many chambers written out for interviews, but unfortunately due to the short, short span that we had, we couldn't really like hop on a call with everyone.
19:55.744 Houssem Eddine Touil
Mah maybe actually we talked over email, but we sent the survey to 1407 chambers of all sizes from ninety-one countries and four hundred and forty-two have responded. So we have a response rate of over 30 percent for now. we we think that the questions that we we have asked could go a little bit further than this. and this is actually what we're going to be doing in in the future. It's going to be like more vertical. We're going to be doing more vertical reports in the future.
20:38.06 Brandon Burton
That is amazing. I mean, just to think 1400 invitations, if you will, to participate in the survey at over 91 countries. So I'm sure as you're getting some of these results back, and you you mentioned some of the the kind of questions that you're asking, right? About retention and growth through through COVID, women-led businesses, some of these you know data points, if you will, around these individual chambers. As you've had such a a wide sampling throughout the world, I I'm sure there's been some things that you've seen that you didn't expect, maybe, or that it kind of surprised you a little bit. Could you speak to any of that?
21:19.374 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. If you want, we can we can start going through some some numbers, if you want. Yeah, sure. So we 75% of chambers we surveyed were were local chambers. So mostly they were from the US and Canada. and we had
21:29.037 Brandon Burton
Yeah, sure.
21:47.298 Houssem Eddine Touil
for national chambers about five percent, another five percent for regional chambers, six percent for international chambers and nine percent for intercontinental chambers of commerce because intercontinental is not like very very common chamber like you find maybe like the American African Chamber of Commerce or the European F so it's not something very common and that's a lot of terrain to to cover. We ask for their membership base. fifty-five percent of them do actually have a membership base between one hundred and five hundred members. And that's very understandable since the the prior the prior question whereas we had seventy-five percent of them local chambers. So yeah, fifty-five percent do have between one hundred and five hundred members, twenty-five percent had over 500 members and we had 15% between 1000 and 10,000 members. This is of course not disregarding some some some exceptions. We had for example federations of chambers which have reached out to us and they had over 12 million businesses under their belt. So yeah so That's a lot to cover. most of the time they're not in the same region. So it's not national chamber most of the time. It's between like two continents or on a continental level. We had very surprising and actually very very interesting ratio that we found among the among the among the women led businesses. So forty five percent of Chamber members are actually women-led businesses. So that was like very interesting insight to to learn if we do compare them to maybe other reports when we find like this is like small number of or small ratio of women led businesses in this sector or this or that. So this is a very interesting insight that.
24:13.59 Houssem Eddine Touil
that we have found. We also had interviews with founders, leaders from from companies or organization which focus on women led businesses.
24:25.826 Brandon Burton
That's that is interesting because a lot of times you know the women led businesses are looked at as almost a minority and needing special attention, which I think there's there's obviously a place for that. But to see in your findings, that's almost half the businesses are going to be women led, which I think is amazing. That's great.
24:47.95 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely, yeah. And most most of the time these this data actually comes from Europe. So these are basically the highest percentage of this ratio comes from European businesses, mostly from Western Europe, and and the second place from from the United States.
25:11.47 Brandon Burton
So I know a lot of times, at least here in the in the US, a lot of chambers will look to other chambers that are of similar size to kind of benchmark and see you know, compare results, compare some outcomes. and I can see that being a a role in maybe the purpose for the the global chamber index. But in your mind, as you set out to to take on this task, what was the purpose that you set out with this with gaining this information and data.
25:45.774 Houssem Eddine Touil
So we wanted to know if as as we said earlier, there are like chambers working on many levels, so they could be limited by their geo geographic focus, hence maybe the kind of businesses they are actually serving and also their respective business communities. So we we have asked chambers, do you Are you open to collaborate with other chambers of commerce? 65% told us we already do. So yeah, that's amazing. And the highest percentage of this comes actually from US-based chambers, and then from Canada-based chambers, and then from in general Europe-based chambers. the standard number here is 55% said that they are open to collaborate with other chambers of commerce and absolutely nobody said no so so yeah
26:51.47 Brandon Burton
That's good. I would I would be surprised if anybody said no to wanting to collaborate and learn what another chamber is doing. I mean, I know you know there's the old saying of of doing your RD of rip-off and duplicate in the chamber world. So to not see what somebody else is doing would be passing up a a big opportunity to to maybe keep yourself on on target and on track of staying relevant. Are there any other findings that really stood out to you or maybe from the the interviews that you did, things that were maybe kind of on the horizon that you're excited about, things that that people should look forward to as they as they dig into the results from your global chamber index?
27:36.532 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely. So we ask them, do you count startups as your members? Seventy-five percent said yes. we're not quite sure how most of the time startups do act are actually part of chambers of commerce. this is actually something that we are going to dig into more in the future. Why we ask this this question? Because I'm myself part of a committee called Link for In. which means link for innovation. So as my head of Chamber Pro and Chamber Provider, and also being part of the the inception of the Tunisian startups, which is an organization, the umbrella organization of the startup ecosystem here in Tunisia, we wanted to bring in the corporate SMEs with startups. And Actually our program has been disrupted with COVID nineteen because we were thinking of doing like a very big event where we invite like the top five hundred or one thousand C level executives from big banks, insurance companies, corporates, so on, but then COVID nineteen said hello. So we had yeah. So so we moved online with with sectoral sessions and
28:53.208 Brandon Burton
Yeah.
29:02.434 Houssem Eddine Touil
That was amazing. So we had C level executives of corporations pitching their problems to startups. I mean, they were telling them what their problem w problems were. It could be something which is not actually activity-based. so for example, maybe if you do have like a factory, maybe you don't need a solution for for your factory and how to run, but you would need probably a solution to reduce. the electricity bill or maybe for internal communication or the HR or the HR tools and and so on. We have had later on many many big companies actually partner up with with startups. We had corporation investing in startups. We had corporation also reaching out to startups for acquisition. So This was very interesting to find because most of the time startups they they're more like rebels. So they're kind of they want to disrupt the the field that they are focused on. We are not quite sure if they have joined, if this high ratio of membership is actually due to maybe COVID nineteen. Or it it was just right from before COVID-19. sorry, so five percent of chambers said not yet, but they are planning to, and 20% said that they don't they don't count startups as as their members. And actually we want to call on chambers to to to be to to be closer to to startups and what and and actually offer services to what they are doing, maybe such as member to member discounts. If you do have a chamber with maybe one thousand members, five thousand members, and there is like a company, for example, for I don't know, they do have software for lead generation or emailing or something that could be big for them. You could to probably partner up for an affinity program, for example. So it's it's very scalable and everybody wins. Talking about affinity programs
31:26.552 Houssem Eddine Touil
We have asked them what is what is the most pressing thing or what do you need the most right now. So the highest one was retain membership. So 55% of chambers said that right now they need to retain more than their members. 45% they want to grow their memberships. And later on, followed by members training. By 25%. And we also had non-dues revenue. So 35% of chambers said that they need more non-dues revenue. 25% said they want to build new partnerships, and 20% they need more affinity programs or at least create more affinity programs. We have also had As you know, in the survey we always put a field like free comment field where people could actually tell us more, maybe something we have misdone. So we have too many telling us that they do have a problem filling out jobs. So many chambers they are actually understaffed and also they are recruiting for their for their members, but maybe because they don't have like huge online communities, for example, so they could not reach a higher number of candidates to recruit for for their members.
33:02.73 Brandon Burton
Yeah, that is interesting. That's all really really good data. any any chamber out there who's looking for more nondues revenue or affinity programs, reach out to me. I can help you. I've got some good contacts. but I I think the the idea of the startups is interesting. And I I I'll be interested in the future as you guys continue to follow those numbers. And you had mentioned startups are maybe seen as rebels sometimes. I see as maybe being stubborn. Sometimes they're gonna figure this out one way or another on their own, you know, they don't feel like they need anyone else. But you can go, you know, further and faster with the help of others. So for a chamber to reach out and be the champion for those startups and help them, I think will go a long ways.
33:48.0 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely. And maybe last a couple of insights we c we could go through. So we we wanted to know how many members they have lost due to COVID nineteen. And seventy percent said they lost less than ten percent of their membership base. we had the the highest ratio here is We had 5% of chambers, they have lost at least 21% of their membership base. so this was for due to COVID-19. Now we ask them how many have you gained since COVID-19? So we wanted to know if what was the most important. So was COVID-19 the cause to lose more members or was it actually and and positive yeah yeah like benefit for them and we found out that fifty five percent of chambers have gained at least five percent of of new members so between five and ten percent membership growth we had thirty percent of chambers they had more than twenty percent growth Fifteen percent of chambers they had over thirty percent growth. Wow. So yeah, so this actually means that chambers are have been doing like a great job and we have seen like chambers were helping each other. I mean there's like a few things that we had we had during the interviews have been like helping each other, have been doing like programs each other, they they have helped. their members for for free actually, you know, for like economic relief programs in their respective countries. for example, they have held like webinars on the new adjusted regulations for taxation, for recruiting. You know, many countries have actually changed their labor laws for for example, for furlough and so on. So they have done like
36:03.874 Houssem Eddine Touil
great job, which means that chambers have really stepped up in the game and yeah, they have gained more they have grown actually more their membership base to COVID nineteen, if if we could say.
36:16.322 Brandon Burton
Thanks.
36:19.968 Brandon Burton
I think that's the first time I've heard thanks to COVID nineteen in a non sarcastic way. Yeah, where it's not thanks to Absolutely.
36:26.03 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely. Yeah, and also we c as I don't know, there have been some there have been some memes like you know on the internet say what has driven the the acceleration of the g digital transformation of the organization is it CEO, CTO or COVID nineteen? And everybody said it's COVID nineteen. So that's right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
36:51.99 Brandon Burton
Yeah. Well Houssem, I know we need to start wrapping up here, getting a little a little short on time, but I wanted to ask you if there's any any tips or action items you would have for chamber champions that are listening to to help take their organization up to the next level. And I'm sure you may have some insights from this survey you did too, that you can help point them in the right direction.
37:17.324 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely. So I think it's hard to share more than one item. So I'll be quick. So first productivity, I think. try to automate tasks as much as mo possible, whether create like chatbot for your social media pages or embed like snippet into your website, create an FAQ section, make sure of course it is visible to everyone so you don't have to pick up the phone the whole day and reply to messages and emails repeatedly for for the same thing like Why joining your chamber of commerce? What do you do? I mean, there are many people asking for things that chamber don't do. So maybe say this is what we do and this is what we do not do. so I think man many chamber professionals could relate relate to this. so sorry find more time to something else. So advise you to automate your workflow as much as possible. Much of my workflow is actually automated. for now, so I use integrations and automated softwares a lot. also things are moving fast, so don't worry, you you don't have to impl implement everything new, everything trendy. So just like not all chambers work the same way. So there is no need to be anxious about new things that you you're not implementing at your chamber yet.
38:44.58 Brandon Burton
I think that's a a good tip right there. Just I I know so many chamber executives are overwhelmed with the amount of stuff that comes at them every day. So anything you can do to simplify, automate, get some of those, you know, FAQs as automated responses, anything to to help clear the deck for those more pressing and urgent things that really need your attention, I think is so you know, spot on. So I'm curious to hear your answer to this next question too. As as we look to the future of chambers of commerce, how do you see their purpose going forward?
39:20.27 Houssem Eddine Touil
Well, I think the future is already here. So I think if there is one thing I should say about future chambers is to start looking at the the partnership module more than the membership module. So in the future we will have to be the number one partner, a business of any type, anywhere, anytime should count on right from their inception, right from day one. And why not even right from their day zero, so right before. I open a company, why not reach out to Chamber of Commerce from the beginning before I start filing the foreign corporation? so many years ago we used to say if your business is not on the internet, then it will be out of business. I think with this data that we have crunched, and like fifty-five percent of chambers have gained more mem members due to COVID nineteen. I think it has never been more relevant from last year to today, and everyone learned the lesson. that chambers are are actually the backbone of the global economy. Now if I may very modestly maybe coin this quote, I think the new adage will be if your business is not a chamber member, then it will be out of business.
40:37.762 Brandon Burton
I like that. Yeah. I like it. Absolutely. Well, Houssem, I know you gave out the website earlier, chamberindex.com, but is that the best place for someone to access the results from the 2021 Global Chamber Index? Or how what's the best way for them to find that or to get in contact with you if they wanted to further this discussion or or just connect with you offline?
41:03.904 Houssem Eddine Touil
Absolutely. So starting from May seventh, eleven AM Eastern time, you can go to chamberindex.com and download the report. It's free. we you can also reach out to me on LinkedIn or Twitter or by email to the address Houssem at clecow.com. So Houssem as H O U double S E at clecow dot com. So feel free to reach out to me. can talk if you want, if you have probably more ideas for the next edition of the Global Chamber Index or if you could work each other, so please feel free to reach out anytime.
41:46.186 Brandon Burton
I am fascinated with these numbers that you gave us. I'm looking forward to to going through all the the information results from the survey myself and reading the the interviews you're posting as well in this report. I will get that information, your contact information and the website up on the show notes for this episode, which will be found at chamber chatpodcast.com slash episode one hundred and twenty. But Houssem, thank you so much for coming on here and spending time