Data Driven Decision Making with Aaron Nelson

This transcript has been lightly edited for readability and to correct obvious transcription errors while preserving the meaning of the original conversation.

Episode 124 — Data Driven Decision Making with Aaron Nelson
Clean Speaker-Labeled Transcript
Guest: Aaron Nelson
Automated QA: Passed

00:00.884 Brandon Burton
This is the Chamber Chat Podcast, the show dedicated to chamber professionals to spark ideas and to get actionable tips and strategies to better serve your members and community.
00:13.708 Intro Voice
And now your host, the first podcast I listened to was the investors podcast podcasts. He's my dad, Brandon
00:21.334 Brandon Burton
Brandon Burton. Welcome to Chamber Chat Podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Burton, where it is my goal to introduce you to people and ideas to better help you serve your chamber members and your community. You're joining us today for episode 124. Our title sponsor for this episode is Holman Brothers Membership Sales Solutions. Is your chamber struggling to drive the revenue it needs to support your initiatives? It's a common problem. And one that our new title sponsor, Holman Brothers Membership Sales Solutions, knows a lot about. Doug and Bill Holman aren't just sales consultants, they're real live chamber guys with twenty plus years of chamber leadership experience. They know how to diagnose and solve member recruiting issues faster and better than anyone else. And they're ready to put that knowledge to work for you in your chamber. Call the Holman Brothers today at six one nine eight five two one three nine one. Or check them out at HolmanBros.com. That's H-O-L-M-A-N-B-R-O-S.com. Our guest for this episode is Aaron Nelson, who is the president and CEO of the Chamber for the Greater Chapel Hill in Carrboro in North Carolina. Aaron joined the chamber as a president and CEO in 2001 after working at his alma mater at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill as a coordinator of local relations. In his role at the Chamber, Aaron serves as membership network of 750 enterprise employing more than 95,000 people throughout their region. A 1997 graduate of UNC Chapel Hill with a degree in philosophy, Aaron also served as the elected student body president. Aaron, I'm happy to have you with us today on the Chamber Chat podcast. I'd love for you just to say hello to all the chamber champions out there listening and Share something interesting about yourself so we can all get to know you better.
02:19.558 Aaron Nelson
Well, it is very good to be here. I appreciate the invitation. I am a total association management geek. I love the again, you know, if I'm under super stress, we should pull out a spreadsheet and think about budgets and organizational structure and bylaws and this career in Chamberland has been absolutely wonderful. I love the philosophy of case, copy and steal everything. and a little R and D rip off and duplicate. I've learned a lot from chamber peers across the country and look forward to this conversation.
02:52.046 Brandon Burton
I love that. I haven't heard case before. I've heard the R and D, but case is a new one for me. So that that's good. Hopefully I've everybody will will find something they can copy and steal out of this episode. Tell us a little bit about your chamber there, kind of size, location, budget, staff, just so we can kind of get an idea of of where you're coming from.
03:12.748 Aaron Nelson
Happy to. We are in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, the home of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, town of about 60,000 people. Carrborough right next to us, about 20,000 folks. And we are one of the points of the Research Triangle region, with Durham and Raleigh being the rest of that triangle, right in the center of North Carolina. Our chamber, born in the 1940s, now 75 years old. We're a staff of seven, we're a membership of, as you said, sort of seven hundred and 50 Enterprises run about a million dollar budget. We are principally a dues organization and proud of the fact that we earn more dollars per member. I think we're in the 99th percentile of dollar investment per member. So we're not a kind of chamber that runs the Strawberry Festival or Mule Day, really about how to deliver great value to ch chamber members so that they'll pay dues.
04:06.07 Brandon Burton
That's nice. It it also keeps your focus on your members and and not trying to run eighteen different ways.
04:12.846 Aaron Nelson
Correct. We don't we try not to chase the money, we try to deliver on a mission.
04:16.76 Brandon Burton
That's great. So our our topic for discussion today is going to be around data-driven decision making and kind of what that means, how you're implementing it there at your chamber. And we'll get into this discussion as soon as we get back from this quick break. Are you looking for a year-round affordable and timely shop local campaign for your chamber or CVB? Look no further. Build a custom eat shop play mobile app with app my community. By visiting Appmycommunity dot com slash chamber chat. App My Community mobile apps are not just simple membership directory listings, they provide many more capabilities to engage with your community. Provide your residents with a robust events calendar, partner with a local fair, festival, or farmers market to provide a schedule, map, and other resources to promote the event. Run a small business Saturday campaign any time of the year using built-in scavenger hunts. Allow your membership to communicate directly to their customers via push notifications. Your App My Community mobile app will be a unique member benefit, allow you to generate non-dues revenue with sponsorship opportunities, and best of all, provide a valuable resource to your community. Please visit AppmyCommunity.com/slash chamber chat now. To receive ten percent off your first year of an app my community mobile app.
05:45.75 Brandon Burton
All right, Aaron, we're back. as I just mentioned, we'll be talking about data driven decision making. What does that mean to you? what should that mean to others that are listening?
05:57.366 Aaron Nelson
I for me it's like think about trying to drive your car if you never ever look down at the dashboard. You didn't know how fast you're going, how much gas there was, how many RPMs, how the oil temperature, et cetera, et cetera. So I think if you're gonna drive an organization, you've got to s have a set of indicators, set of information, data, in order to help you make those choices. Some of us pay attention to some key indicators, right? The basics. Membership renewal, cash in the bank, current. Cash consumption rate and have used those, but we're trying to dig a little deeper and to improve our operations by studying event performance, taking a look at retention cohorts, talking about persistence rates, help us make better choices in terms of how we communicate, make better choices in terms of how we plan and budget, and then to know when we're in trouble or to know when we are succeeding.
06:54.402 Brandon Burton
So let's get into some of those indicators that you pay attention to, why they matter. and then when you see that you are either on track or off track, what do you do with it?
07:07.832 Aaron Nelson
Sure. We'll start with membership. persistence rates is a term that they use a lot at universities and community colleges. And I think chambers should spend more time thinking about. A persistence rate is at a university, how many freshmen become sophomores, how many sophomores become juniors, and how many juniors become seniors? at a university, the fall-off is between sophomore and junior year. And if they can only improve the persistence of sophomores becoming juniors, then their likelihood of graduating really increases. In Chamberland, as you know, our persistence rate problem is between freshman and sophomore year. They join the chamber, but one of our lowest retention rates is in the first year. So we take a look, say a cohort of a hundred chamber members, and any chamber out there, go back four years into your database, how many people joined that year, and then yourself or an intern, track them. So 60% of them renewed their membership the first year, then probably 80% the second year, then probably 90% of that was was left. renews and make it to year four. Once they've made it to year four, you really got to do something wrong to lose them, right? Or they have to change new manager, new owner. But when I do that 60%, then 80%, 85%, 90%, there's still only 41 of those original 100 left after four years at that persistence rate. So we use that to try to target how can we do a better job of moving people between their freshman and sophomore year, their second year membership. And then taking second year members and focusing to be third. Many of us have ambassador programs, and we put those on our most vulnerable members. We outsource to volunteers managing our most vulnerable members, moving between first and second year. I think I have well, I have an opinion. I think we if you're gonna use volunteers, put them on your second year members to become third. But your staff, and if you're small staff, you will need some volunteers.
08:51.35 Brandon Burton
Sounds like you might have a better way.
09:04.952 Aaron Nelson
But know how important that is. If you can increase your first year retention rate from 60 to 70%, that lifetime value of a member goes up dramatically. I think you should also calculate the lifetime value. What is a four, what is a $400 member worth to you over five years? We do that math at about $1,200. They're gonna, you know, because again, you have to take 60% of it the next year and then assume 80% after that. So what is that worth to you? That changes my view of how I should commission it. That changes my view of how much time I should put into moving that between first and second years. So persistence rate is super important. We also take a look and retention at cohorts for renewal. So not I remember renew is the same, right? They're tiny ones, renew differently. And we find they renew differently depend on their level of investment. So we take all of our tiers and we figure out what is the renewal rate for the people in that tier. Well, our top tier, $35,000 community champion, 100% renewal rate. Yeah. The next five, 99 to 100% renewal rate. Our microenterprise, 75%, 80% renewal rate. Well, now you know that, you can get a sense of where should I be putting, what are my when I budget, let's take a look at how many people pay in each of those categories, use a renewal rate, rather than just assume everybody at 90%. And also tells you a lot to know if there's a problem area. Is there some segment that is not renewing properly or disproportionately? And figure out whether you had a price problem or a benefits problem or a service problem. and then track that over time. Now I like data over time. Some of our data, you know, 10 years of consistently asking the same questions. But if you're not a good data collector, fine, just start now. Just start now. And then you use this year's data and then you'll have next year's data and you'll look back one. You're not going to be able, don't be overwhelmed by having to go back 10 years. Try to go back one year and then start it and then carry it forward.
11:14.262 Brandon Burton
And a lot of the management software will make it easier for you too to to go back if you need to dig into the weeds and
11:20.608 Aaron Nelson
It will. And we use great management software, but it won't always answer the question you want. So sometimes, y'all, we're going to have to do an Excel spreadsheet. It will use the management software to produce the data. But you may wish to manipulate it in a slightly different way to really take a look at those cohorts or that persistence rates. And so, yes, you're going to have to rely on your software, but some of it you may need to manipulate slightly differently.
11:50.094 Brandon Burton
So when you're talking about the membership tiers and looking at the renewal rates from the top tier down, you know, however many levels down you get to where you get the, you know, 70% renewal. I can see some people saying, well, those the ones that are paying thirty five hundred dollars, we need to be paying more attention to. And the ones that are only paying, you know, three or four hundred dollars, not that they don't deserve the attention, but trying to weigh. I mean, you only have so much time in the day, but you're you're you're talking about F finding out if it's a price, benefits, or service problem.
12:22.402 Aaron Nelson
Well you could become totally comfortable. So yeah, our top level of thirty five thousand. If I lose one of them versus my five hundred dollar members, I can lose a whole lot of them. Yeah. I I'm not saying that that you once you know the data, you might get comfortable with a seventy-five percent renewal rate of your microenterprise. You're totally cool with that. You should, you know, you might want to be concerned if that has dropped to sixty five or that is now up. But yes, you'll need to focus your time on generating the revenue you need to run the show. The data helps you see when something goes wrong. Is there something happening that is inconsistent with previous year performance? Or are there moderate things that we can do to improve, let's say, a first-year member's retention? Okay. you might also make choices like, my gosh, first year members paying tiny dues quit all the time. Well, maybe we're not going to actively recruit that set. We'll take them if they call us. But we might say to our sales people that that's not we're not gonna actively recruit, been in business less than five years. Those are the kinds of choices. You make whatever choice you want, but you should make it eyes wide open, looking at a good set of dashboard data.
13:39.564 Brandon Burton
Yeah. So I love the discussion of using the data. So you can get levels deep on every one of these things. So again, looking at membership. if you see your drop off for first year members is 70% or not seven 70% renewal, so 30% drop off. how are you able to die to dig in deeper and get data on those 30% that are not renewing to find out where the issue is? Are you able to get some kind of survey response from people that are not renewing or just when they mean a lot of times when they're not renewing, you're not getting a whole lot of communication from them after.
14:18.582 Aaron Nelson
And and the w once you have the information, then you decide is the juice worth the squeeze. If we put in another hundred hours, let's put in another two hundred hours of staff time, and we can push that up from a 60 to a 65% retention rate. That may not be worth it at all. You can decide whether our time is better spent somewhere else. But you have to try a few different things to see if you can move that needle. we realize that we can make a big difference on first year retention if we simply paid attention to it. We were having first year retention rates at 50%. We took a look at the ACCE's benchmarking. We saw the average chamber did 70, and we think we're above average. So we said, heck, we got to do better than 50%. And we began tracking them separately. So we have this sheet. It's got all of the first year members. And then we coloring them red, green, yellow. Are they in? Have they pledged? Just simply paying attention to it. You can't. Manage what you don't measure, and simply paying attention gave us a reason to reach back out because we knew if we could just get them back one more year, their likelihood of renewing that improving that lifetime value went way up. So we thought that was worth our time, and it has paid off. Our first year retention rate is now set up to 70%, even in pandemic, even amongst people who joined in pandemic. we've had our best retention rate ever in the year 2020. So and then compare to peers, my advice is find a neighbor, some organization, maybe not the neighbor, but some organization of similar size and ask them, can we just compare with you? maybe a community like yours, a college town would be the example for us. Can we benchmark against others?
16:03.542 Brandon Burton
Yeah. I think that's huge. Getting those those benchmarking responses and kind of sharing notes is seeing what's working, what's not and
16:12.75 Aaron Nelson
Yeah, you don't have to make this up. These organizations have been around for a hundred years. Everybody else is in a similar situation. Somebody else has your job somewhere else. what can we learn from others? Yeah.
16:25.752 Brandon Burton
So in your the previous response, something that came to mind is a a quote that I had heard and it and I wish I could attribute who said it, but things that you pay attention to tend to appreciate. So if you're just, you know, paying attention to those renewal rates, that just just paying attention alone will help bring those numbers up.
16:45.674 Aaron Nelson
One hundred percent. And new vehicles have proven that. If you tell the driver what their day what the gas mileage is real time, they drive radically differently. Yes. My son has a new he he's got an old c he's got he's seventeen, he's got an old car, and it he knows that his average gas mileage right now is thirty-six. He does everything in his power to get that thing to thirty-seven. but because it's giving him a regular feedback loop, he's paying attention to it. And when when we were kids and the car didn't tell you at all. We didn't know. And so the same is the case for you for membership and pay attention, report at staff meetings, report to your board, set clear goals, measure against them, and you and you will, by your own effort or simply by you know paying attention to it, it will get better.
17:33.166 Brandon Burton
That's right. I know you wanted to to talk about net promo net promoter scores. And sound like that's a passion of yours. So
17:43.2 Aaron Nelson
It's a game changer for us. You can learn a lot from your board members. We had a board member one day tell us about the net promoter score. Anybody see the movie City Slickers? There was this moment where Jack Palance said there was one thing, there was one thing that was important. Well, this is if you could ask one question of your members, so Harvard or someone does a research and says there's one important question for surveys, and that is how likely are you to refer a friend or colleague join the chamber? How likely are you to refer a friend or colleague come to this event next year? So after an event, we ask four questions and four questions only. How likely are you to refer someone to come next year? How likely are you to refer someone to join the chamber? What was fantastic and what was frustrating? You don't have to ask them about the eggs and the parking. They'll tell you when you ask them what was fantastic and what was frustrating. And then that this thing called NPS, you can go Google it. The net promoter score, you give them a scale from zero to 10. Not from one to ten, zero to ten. There's eleven slots. And net promoter means everybody that gives you a nine and a ten, they're promoters. They are enthusiastic. Everybody who gave you a six or below is a detractor. They were unhappy. The people give you a seven and an eight, they're polite. But they're not a promoter and they're not a detractor. You take them out. They don't count at all. So the old model of finding out whether an event was any good is you give them a survey and we got, well, we got a 9.8, or we got a 8.2, and then we do it next year, and we got 8.3, and you're like, well, it doesn't tell you anything. If you, if a bunch of people move from nines to eights, your score drops radically. So what you do is you take the percentage of people that gave you a nine and a 10, and you subtract the combined percentage of people who gave you a one through six, and you get a score. Our annual meeting is a 73. Last year's annual meeting was a 68. And so now we can track and compare events to each other. We can convince the same event over time. So we had an event, it was doing 70, a 72, a 75, and then a 26. Whoa. Well, if we took a look at average, it only went from a 7.7 to a 7.4. We would have taken no action. A 26 was all of our nines became eights, and a couple of sevens became sixes. And that just we got panned.
19:49.198 Brandon Burton
Wow.
20:06.446 Aaron Nelson
So you want promoters. And then that and you can compare across industry. Lots of people are doing net promoter in Chamberland. You can find other chambers that are doing it. I'd be happy to benchmark with anybody. Send me an email at Carolina Chamber. You can Google us at CarolinaChamber.org is the website, and then I can show you my annual meeting. We'll look at yours. And we've been doing it since 2014. So I have seven years. So we take every event, we got the net promoter score. We take every event and we look at what its attendance is. We take every event and we look at what is net revenue. So I got net revenue, attendance, and a net promoter score. And I've got them all lined up on one big dashboard. And you can start to see where what's successful, and you can see some of the things it's time to let go or to make a big change. We added two more pieces of data, staff time intensity on a one to five scale. All hands on deck, or we can do it with what just one person. And then we added, is it aligned with our mission? Does it help us connect our members? Does it help inform our members? Are we uniquely qualified to do it? And with that, we give a red, yellow, and a green. So a golf tournament. Well, we are not uniquely qualified. Anybody can do one. It's not particularly good at connecting people, right? They get to spend what five hours with three guys they already know. Super not diverse, right? It's a whole bunch of white men. and now take a look. What's the score? What's the revenue? How much staff time? We take all that together and we make a choice. Well, we're gonna keep it because it makes money and it's low staff time and it's high something else. But if it's low, if it's high staff time, low money, and doesn't accomplish your mission, it's time to say.
21:51.822 Brandon Burton
It's cut. Yeah. Yeah. So the staff time and the mission, is that something you're asking yourself internally? You're not internal. Okay.
22:01.346 Aaron Nelson
That's our judgment about what yeah, like we were doing a Hall of Fame event, super staff time intensive and losing money. We're uniquely qualified and it's on mission, but it's too much work for too little result. leadership programs are those as well. 25 people are gonna benefit. You've got 700 members. Now we keep doing them because it it satisfies. A host of other objectives of ours. Yeah. No one indicator will tell you what to do. It's the it's the combination of all of this. But my ask of all those out there in Chamberland working on this is you gotta at least look to help you make your choices. Take a look at the data. And the data will give you a picture. You saw the move, we've all seen the movie The Matrix. Yeah. Some people can see the numbers and some people just see the pictures. So so I want to see the pic the numbers make a picture and use that picture to help you steer.
23:08.03 Brandon Burton
All right. So how does using data to make decisions lead to things like innovation at your chamber?
23:19.126 Aaron Nelson
Well one, because it helps clear the deck sometimes and give you spade. but it they can show holes. is there some place that we are missing? It also gives you confidence to try new things because you know you'll be able to measure whether that new thing works or not. When you have a Zoom meeting and you can't see anybody's faces, it's really hard to talk to them. You can't tell are they enjoying this, not enjoying this. Everybody's nodding and smiling or like everybody walked away from their computer, you just don't know. But when you can see their face, i.e., when they give you the data, then you know and you can make some choice. So we'll try something radically new and different. Let's see. What was the net promoter score? Did we lose our shirts? How hard was it to do it? and that will help. Right. You're willing to drive somewhere new because you have a GPS and you know you're not going to get lost because you have this machine like Waze or whatever, it's telling you where to go and even tell you where the gas station is if you get lost. And because of that, we have confidence to do new things. Like that. So if you can track your data, it'll improve your confidence and willingness to explore new things.
24:29.814 Brandon Burton
I like that. It'll give you that confidence to maybe s stick your neck out there a little bit and and try something new. That's all
24:36.31 Aaron Nelson
You don't have to do it forever, but yeah, you can try it.
24:39.306 Brandon Burton
And see how you score. Correct.
24:41.102 Aaron Nelson
Correct, or you can call another chamber and say, Did you do it? How did it score?
24:44.118 Brandon Burton
That's right. I like that with that idea. so you had mentioned a little bit about you know, through the pandemic, your renewal rates, overall as you've been tracking data throughout the pandemic, how how have you guys performed and is it better or worse than expected or right on
25:03.822 Aaron Nelson
Very well, and I'd say better than we deserve, but that wouldn't be true because we earned it. We worked hard. as you all, everybody out there listening to a chamber podcast, you know you worked hard. You have never been more valuable to your members. There's never been a time where you should be more confident in asking for their investment. Some of us are a little ashamed, you think their business isn't going so well. So you're kind of soft selling and you're being super patient with them paying their dues. You deserve it. They paid their phone bills on time, they paid their cable bill on time, they paid their Zoom bill on time. They needed all three of those things in order to be successful. And they needed you, the chamber, also. And so we earned it, right? Great communications. We supported them. We cried with them. We planned with them. We helped them find their money. And they rewarded us with renewal. So last year we had a 92% retention rate. We had our highest first year retention rate we ever had. We had strong new membership growth, but but candidly, we didn't spend a lot of time on new membership growth. We spent a lot of our time serving existing enterprise. Yeah. We got our PPP loans. We're as strong as we've ever been. And as I talk to chambers across the country, so are they. The chambers hurting the most are the ones who are major event driven, right? That craft festival was half your money, then you've got a big you've had a big problem. furloughs and other things. But many chambers proved their worth and their members rewarded them with continued investment.
26:38.4 Brandon Burton
Yeah, that that's awesome. I'm glad to hear that you guys were having your values seen and noticed if by your your the members within your organization to to renew and and to see the efforts that you that you're putting out there to support them and and be kind of that lifeline, not kind of be that lifeline.
26:57.902 Aaron Nelson
Proud of themselves for that. Chambers should be proud. And I think the kind of communications that you should be sending, I mean, you can open with, yes, it's tough. but our letter, our invitation to renew says, but we've never been more confident that we that we've delivered great value to you. Chamber membership is more meaningful and valuable than ever before. We actually did a dues increase in 19 that went into effect in 2020. So Everybody who got a bill from us in 2020 saw a dues increase. Not me saw a dues increase and was in a crisis. Most chambers, y'all, we do not charge enough money for our service. You can charge more. Everybody complains as much about a $15 dues increase as they do about a hundred dollar dues increase. So you might as well do the hundred. You're gonna get the same amount of complaining. and take a lesson from Netflix and let people pay you monthly.
27:34.742 Brandon Burton
Wow.
27:56.151 Aaron Nelson
Yeah.
27:57.41 Brandon Burton
Good tips.
27:58.57 Aaron Nelson
a thousand dollar iPhone. None of us would buy a thousand dollar iPhone, but we're all happy to pay nineteen dollars a month for next two years. So let's give them that option also.
28:08.608 Brandon Burton
They're like a good drug dealer, right? They give it to you for free at first and got everybody hooked on the iPhone.
28:15.01 Aaron Nelson
And then charge appropriately.
28:17.518 Brandon Burton
That's right. Well, I know we need to start wrapping things up here. So I wanted to ask you for if you have one tip or action item that listeners can take to adopt in their organization to help take them up to the next level.
28:31.82 Aaron Nelson
Well, most importantly, is you gotta put gas in the bus, right? You guys are good drivers out there. Your board is drawing the lines on the road and they're setting the broad direction. You're a good driver, but you gotta get gas in the bus. And fueling this organization and funding it is super is one of the most important things. And I think the biggest thing folks can do is really think about increasing the base dues. You're not charging enough. Take your total budget and divide it by your Total members. That's the average cost of a member. That is more than your most of your members pay. Your microenterprise members are paying too little. Nobody will survive selling a $7 hamburger for $4. It just doesn't work. It takes $7 to make it. So look at your base dues and think I'm worth it and I should charge more for that. There are strategies on how to implement that and so you don't lose members. And then the second is measure, report internally, report to your board. And if you pay attention to the indicators, maybe this year pick one or two that you're going to do differently, track and focus and see whether you can move the needle.
29:47.998 Brandon Burton
I love that. I was hoping that answer would have something to do with data.
29:51.874 Aaron Nelson
Well you need the money and then say once you got the money, make sure that your stuff your programs and your services are
30:00.046 Brandon Burton
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I like to ask everyone I have on the podcast, as we look to the future, how do you see the the future of chambers going forward?
30:13.984 Aaron Nelson
I think we were at great risk five or six years ago. The Kiwanis were dying, the rotary was dying, the bull moose, whatever, and the you know, all these associations. but I think chambers have got their stuff together over the last decade and I feel really positive about it. If it's gonna be the same white guys with ties in a back room, that's not gonna work and people won't associate. But if we can be relevant, we can make community impact. If we can stop asking people for money for the widgets, but instead ask them the money to make positive community impact, we can focus on difference making and less about services or transactions, then I think we've got a really bright future.
30:59.2 Brandon Burton
That's awesome. I I totally agree. And being relevant is the key to to sticking around in the future. So absolutely. Well, Aaron, I know you had mentioned about wanting to, you know, do some benchmarking maybe with chambers out there who are interested. I wanted to give you an opportunity to put out any contact information if somebody wanted to to reach out and connect with you, you know, trade some information. What would be the best way for them to reach out and connect?
31:27.212 Aaron Nelson
best ways to send me an email. It's anelson at CarolinaChamber.org. You can track me down through our website, just Google Chapel Hill Chamber or Google Carolina Chamber. If you did send me a message through Facebook or LinkedIn, if you send it to LinkedIn, I think you're trying to sell me something. So I may be slow in trying to get it as how I get to it, but I will ultimately see it. But email for me is a better back and forth way to talk to each other. Once we at that then we can establish a texting relationship. Take it from there.
31:58.05 Brandon Burton
All right. I will I'll get that in the show notes for this episode. I'll put up your email and of course the website is the chamber, but our show notes for this episode will be found at chamber chatpodcast.com slash episode one twenty four. But Aaron, I really appreciate you hopping on here with me today and and talking data, the chamber. I think this is such valuable information and and that's the key of what it is. It's information to help you guide your future. So I hope everybody took notes and Go back and listen to it again and and reach out to Aaron and and see how he's doing things. But thank you so much.
32:32.622 Aaron Nelson
Well thank you.
32:35.104 Brandon Burton
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