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Brandon Burton (00:00.902)
Today’s guest is a dynamic, I’m gonna start that over. I forgot my intro. Hello, Chamber Champions. Welcome to Chamber Chat Podcast. I’m your host, Brandon Burton, and it’s my goal here on the podcast to introduce you to people and ideas to better help you serve your Chamber members and your community. Today’s guest is a dynamic leader in the world of small business advocacy and economic development.
Matt Appenzeller is the executive director of the Southern Ohio Chamber Alliance, representing 127 chambers of commerce and helping thousands of small businesses access health insurance and other vital benefits. He also serves as plan administrator for the SOCA benefit plan, a statewide medical plan designed specifically for small employers.
Matt’s leadership journey includes serving as executive director of the Preble County Chamber of Commerce, where he spearheaded the creation of the Preble County Economic Development Partnership and was named community leader of the year in 2012. Passionate about cultivating the next generation of entrepreneurs, he also serves as president of the Board of Trustees for the Ohio Business Week Foundation, a hands-on business camp for high school students hosted at the Ohio University’s College of Business.
two decades of experience in sales and management and a proud seven-year tenure in the US Army, brings a wealth of knowledge, discipline, and commitment to service. He currently resides in Cincinnati with his wife Lauren. Matt, welcome to Chamber Chat podcast. We’re happy to have you on the show today. I’d love to give you an opportunity to say hello to all the Chamber Champions out there listening. If you would share something interesting about yourself so we can all get to know you a little better.
Matt Appenzeller (01:52.044)
Well, to share something interesting, I was stationed in Germany before and after the Berlin Wall fell. So I got to see it before and after.
Brandon Burton (02:06.437)
that how long were you there on either end of that mark in history?
Matt Appenzeller (02:10.397)
So I was there for a total of four and a half years and I had been there, gosh, I want to say like two and a half years, two and three quarter years when it fell and then finished out my actually second enlistment from there.
Brandon Burton (02:33.623)
I just, yes, yeah, yeah.
Brandon Burton (03:05.657)
Well, is a that is an interesting fact about you. In fact, just last week I met a German native who grew up and lived his whole life in Germany and talked about, you know, what a significance that was when the wall came down and just a life changer for for the whole the whole area. So very cool.
Matt Appenzeller (03:24.086)
Yeah, yeah, for the, yeah, I think that, you know, the concept of freedom, we all talk about that in our own country here, but, you know, think about a time when, you know, people in East Germany literally risked their lives just to get across the border. And if, you know, there were
It was a militarized zone and they were avoiding gunfire to do it. So that’s how precious freedom is.
Brandon Burton (03:54.989)
Yeah. Yeah, freedom’s a great thing. Awesome. Well, tell us a little bit about Soka. Help give us an idea of the organization, the size. I know your bio talked about 127 chambers that you guys serve, but just help kind of set the stage for what you guys do and who you serve and that scope of work you’re involved with.
Matt Appenzeller (04:17.166)
Sure. So the Southern Ohio Chamber Alliance exists to support Chambers of Commerce. So what we do is we cultivate relationships with insurance carriers, brokers, and other affinity partners so that we can offer cost saving and value added products and services to employers. But we do that through Chambers of Commerce, which helps the chambers drive membership.
and also drive non dues revenue for the chamber. Southern Ohio Chamber Alliance has been around now for, we’re in our, we’re in our 33rd year. I’ve been leading the organization for the past 13 years. know, typically our meat and potatoes is so to speak, has been through healthcare or health insurance. We’ve had a series of partnerships over the years. Currently.
You know, after the, the affordable care act was formed, us and some other interested partners got together to start a self-insured plan for small employers that gave the small employer like the same chance of the self-insured plan that a large employer would have. And Brandon, I got to tell you, it’s whenever I’m speaking about this in front of people.
You know, we thought that this would be a temporary thing until Congress sort of shored up some provisions within the Affordable Care Act as it relates to small employers. And about a year and a half into it, we discovered that, know what, Congress is not going to do anything anytime soon. So we went ahead and put our foot on the accelerator, so to speak, and it’s done very, very well.
It’s actually called a multiple employer welfare arrangement. That’s the legal term of the plan. And we’ve been able to serve over 7,000 employers in that health plan. And it’s a, it’s a privilege to be able to offer that kind of value. And we’ve gotten now, including our approximately, you know, 130 chambers, we, we have chambers throughout the state who also participate in that with us. And so,
Matt Appenzeller (06:40.024)
We’ve got about 275 chambers of commerce in Ohio that are helping with the distribution of that plan.
Brandon Burton (06:46.981)
When I think of over 7,000 employers and then break that down to the number of employees and families that that affects, that’s huge. That is a huge impact.
Matt Appenzeller (06:55.882)
It is. It is. We’ve been hovering around, you know, 50,000 employee lives for a really long time. And like you just said, I mean, it’s a big number and it’s a privilege to be able to do it.
Brandon Burton (07:16.771)
Well, for our topic of discussion today, just a little bit of background for listeners, Matt and I have gone back and forth on some emails and LinkedIn chats and different things. And I think even at ACCE last year, we talked a little bit, it was, Matt’s had some pretty neat ideas that we’ve gone back and forth about. He’s working on a new book right now where some of these ideas are going to be flushed out even more. But I’d said, you know, it would be good just to get you on the podcast.
and we’ll talk about some of these ideas that you’re trying to get out there and more normalized in the chamber world and shine a light on it. So we’re gonna kind of be all over the place, you know, throughout this conversation, but it’s all gonna be chamber focused and it’s gonna be all about improving the impact that a chamber can have. And we’ll dive into this as soon as we get back from this quick break.
All right, Matt, we’re back. As I mentioned before the break, we’re gonna dive in on all things Chamber. So I mentioned you’re working on a new book. I don’t know if you wanna start with kind of what the book’s focus is gonna be on or if you wanna dive into some of the specifics. Do you have any preference?
Matt Appenzeller (08:19.273)
Awesome. Let’s do it.
Matt Appenzeller (08:33.247)
Yeah, well, let me start by, you know, kind of just laying out how it got started, right? So I used to spend a significant amount of time on the road visiting chambers. Now we’ve hired someone to do that, but…
Over the 13 years of not just me doing that, but the other two people on our staff, between the three of us, we’ve got about 50 years of chamber experience, right? And we see the same four problems that local chambers, you know, they end up having, they experience them over and over and over. And so I wrote this paper called the four critical challenges facing local chambers of commerce today.
And, you know, somebody said, I can’t remember. think it was somebody on my staff said, you know, you don’t just write a book. I actually think I said that and she said, yeah, you kind of should. And so we just sort of expanded the ideas from there. And, and here we are, right. I, it’s this, writing a book as I’m finding out as a, as a huge undertaking. sometimes it’s very enjoyable and sometimes it’s not.
but we’re just trying to get the word out. one of the things I see Brandon is we see changes in leadership at these chambers of commerce. And I know that with your background, you have seen it also. they just ended up recreating the wheel, right? Before the next change in leadership. And so if we can put some…
literature out there that maybe helps to reduce that and helps to point chambers at least in the maybe in the right direction or at least points out what problems that they’re going to face and how to avoid them well then I feel that we’ve we’ve put out a valuable product.
Brandon Burton (10:42.061)
And you’re right, I’ve seen it a number of times and people will join the chamber because they like the chamber president, the executive, know, there’s something, some connection there or the salesperson that sold them was really good and they really liked that salesperson but then that salesperson gets hired on at another business in the community and that member fades away, you know, once renewal comes around because that salesperson’s not there. So being able to get to that core value of what the chamber does,
Matt Appenzeller (11:04.568)
That’s right. That’s right.
Brandon Burton (11:12.005)
the chamber is going to be in the future, I think is so critical to be able to retain that purpose for chambers and how they operate and being able to help ingrain that in their membership.
Matt Appenzeller (11:27.046)
Absolutely. And, you know, we recently had a conversation with one of our guests on our podcast that, you know, he says it’s all about relationships. Well, and he’s right. He’s right. It is. And when you have these changes in leadership, you know, those relationships get interrupted and then they have to be reconstituted. And it just, is very difficult for a chamber to have.
some moment gain momentum if they’re constantly having those leadership changes. So that in itself, now that I’m on it, that is one of the four critical challenges, you know, facing chambers of commerce is leadership and specifically the changes in leadership.
Brandon Burton (11:58.928)
Yeah.
Brandon Burton (12:14.233)
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the aspects that you talk about, that we’ve talked about, and I know you’re addressing in the book as well, is you have this really intriguing analogy that you’ve used between lighthouses and lampposts. Do you want to tell us what that, what your background, what the analogy is all about and how chambers can take that home?
Matt Appenzeller (12:36.717)
Sure.
Matt Appenzeller (12:43.454)
Absolutely, absolutely. So let me start at the beginning of that, right? So one of the things that think chambers really need to do is to have the right mindset on who they are as a chamber. If you’re just going to be this community organization or if you’re going to be a beacon of light, right?
And one of the things, as you know, has occurred in our profession is there’s this emphasis on the word relevance, that chambers need to be relevant. And I’m going to take exception to that, right? In fact, I do take exception to that. I think that, well, let me tell a story. I’ll do it that way. So I’m…
doing some work on my laptop and my wife is next to me on the couch and she’s watching one of the entertainment shows. I think it’s the extra with Mario Lopez and whatnot. But anyway, this aging celebrity gets on the show and is pitching their pet product. And my wife says, well, look at so-and-so just trying to be relevant again. And I thought to myself, boy.
Brandon Burton (13:52.941)
Ouch.
Matt Appenzeller (13:56.018)
Yeah. mean, is this where we really are? I mean, is this where we really are with change? Are we really like aging institutions just trying to remain relevant again? If that’s the case, we need to stop talking about setting our sights on being relevant and we need to start raising our sights to having an impact. So I say all of that.
Brandon Burton (14:17.965)
Relevance almost a relevance a point of desperation almost so
Matt Appenzeller (14:21.87)
It seems that way. we want to take chambers from relevant to impact. And so we drew the analogy of, hey, do you want to be a lamp post? Well, that’s being relevant. You’re just shining a light on a little square or a little portion of the public square. Or do you want to be a lighthouse where members and the community are looking to you for direction?
And you are being the spotlight. You’re not trying to be in the spotlight. You are being the spotlight for your community. So which one do you want to be chamber? And that’s why I say chambers of commerce. One of the very first things they need to do is just think about the mindset that they currently have. If it’s centered around relevance, I’m here to tell you that’s way too low.
Brandon Burton (15:12.665)
Yeah, yeah, I would totally agree with that. And as you were talking about the lighthouse shining the light.
I see some correlation even with Dave Atkinson’s book, Horseshoe vs. Chess, where he correlates the, running a chamber is like playing chess, where each piece is a different part of your community. You’ve got tourism, economic development, school district, city, all these different entities. And as a convener,
Matt Appenzeller (15:28.344)
See, mm-hmm.
Matt Appenzeller (15:37.806)
That’s right.
Brandon Burton (15:45.534)
a chamber should be shining the light on the different chess pieces. So that lamp post, not lamp post, that lighthouse rather, as that light’s going around, it should be shining on those different chess pieces each time it goes around. So I love the analogy. It really resonates for me. And hopefully those that are hearing this, hopefully it’s turning on a light in their minds as well as to what they can do.
Matt Appenzeller (16:09.358)
Well, thank you. And I try to outline that in the book as best as I can. I guess readers will have to tell me if it resonated with them. But the analogy is clear. mean, just don’t think that we can settle for just, you know.
shining a light on this small area. We need to be the spotlight and be that leader where people literally look to us for direction. The world is changing very rapidly now. we need to be able to use, chambers of commerce need to be able to use their convening authority, as you mentioned, to do just that and to be that beacon of light for their community.
Brandon Burton (16:58.723)
Yeah. And I think if you are operating as a lamp post, I mean, I don’t want anybody to feel bad, but you you’re, missing the mark. I mean, it really, if you’re, if that’s all that you’re focused on, there’s a lot of other parts of the community that need attention and it will really take your chamber to a place of impact. So I love that. This kind of transitions us to the next thought that I wanted to address with you is,
Matt Appenzeller (17:16.866)
That’s right. That’s right.
Brandon Burton (17:28.407)
So some chambers are operating as a lamppost, and some have caught the vision and they’re operating more as a lighthouse now.
I know it’s been an issue for you. I’ve recognized it as well, but how can a chamber?
see how they’re measuring up. How do they compare to other chambers amongst their peers? I know ACC has their annual benchmark survey, but what percentage of chambers participate in that? So that’s a problem in and of itself, but I know you have some thoughts about trying to measure and see the performance of your organization compared to others.
Matt Appenzeller (18:01.602)
that’s right
Matt Appenzeller (18:11.468)
Yeah, yeah, that’s right, Brandon. another one of the four critical challenges that we’ve said is that in our profession, there is a shockingly low amount of industry standard metrics within our industry. Now, ACCE does a great job of collecting data and publishing it every year.
I guess one of my concerns is that no one really knows about it. Well, there’s actually two things, right? Number one, I’m not sure that they’re getting enough participation in that. And then number two, once it is published, like no one really knows about it unless you’re a member. And so…
Matt Appenzeller (19:01.678)
It renders the data almost irrelevant because if no one’s seeing it, right, if not enough people are seeing it. So an argument that I make in the book is that, one of the things as you know, and Dave Atkinson outlined this in his book. And so we need to get away from the saying that says, if you’ve seen one chamber of commerce, you’ve seen one. Right. Because.
That I believe is harmful to the profession. What chambers need now is to be able to have metrics and not myths, right? Every chamber can be measured on a certain amount of standard metrics. We recently developed a scorecard for chambers that we actually are just rolling out this week. And we…
are measuring chambers in on seven data points across three broad categories. Those broad categories are membership growth, financial strength, and revenue composition. until chambers, especially the smaller chambers and brand again, you have experience working with some of these smaller chambers and smaller communities, right? I think one of the biggest problems is, is they don’t know how they’re
being against their peers. And so they, they, kind of choose this strategy is maybe this working and maybe this strategy and, they don’t have any benchmark. That’s right. That’s right. And so with, if you have standard metrics, industry standard metrics, you can isolate where those strengths and weaknesses are within your own organization. And you can build up the strengths and you can also, you know, begin working on those weaknesses as well.
Brandon Burton (20:41.005)
It’s a lot of guessing. Yeah.
Matt Appenzeller (21:02.176)
So that’s what we’re trying to do here. We’ve got a kind of got a small audience to work with. Hopefully we’ll gain some traction with it, but I’m confident that if we just persist, we will.
Brandon Burton (21:15.375)
Yeah, as you mentioned with the ACCE benchmarking surveys and the results and the whole reason that I started this podcast is trying to help those chambers that are underserved that their board doesn’t allow for them to have the budget to participate in their state association or ACCE. So as those results come out and they’re a struggling chamber that needs to know what these standards should be, what they should measure themselves against, and they don’t get access to these
reports because their board doesn’t allow them the budget to do so it just perpetuates the problem and we need to be able to help get it out and I think you know with these areas that you’re talking about measurement for those should be standards across different chambers and it still allows for the autonomy for chambers to address the needs specific to their community while still having those the standards to work with.
Matt Appenzeller (21:48.024)
That’s right.
Matt Appenzeller (21:52.772)
That’s right.
Matt Appenzeller (22:12.046)
That’s right. Let me give you an example. Let me give you an example and I don’t want to give too far off track, but like, okay, let’s just take, you know, let’s just take Richardson, Texas, which I know is kind of near you in the North Dallas area. And I don’t know if Richardson has a chamber or not. I’m just saying that, right? Okay. Okay. So I mean, if you declare yourself a chamber of commerce in Richardson, Texas, then what that chamber probably has done,
Brandon Burton (22:29.241)
They do, yeah.
Matt Appenzeller (22:40.346)
is they’ve put a boundary around their service area. And so you’ve automatically restricted your market area. So I don’t think chambers understand the significance of doing that. Like any business out here, you wouldn’t do that. You wouldn’t draw a boundary around where you would sell your product or service. You would try to expand it as far as you can.
I know that we do that for a reason, but you got to understand how that impacts the bottom line by doing that. within that, let’s say that we determine for a chamber of that size that the standard market penetration rate is, let’s just say it’s 28%. And Brandon, you’re running a chamber and I’m running a chamber, right?
So Brandon, in your chamber, let’s say we both have the same goal of increasing revenue by 15%. Your chamber is running at 20 % market penetration. So we know that you’re already eight points below what the average is. Well, operationally, your choices are very clear. You just need to increase your sales effort, which will increase membership dollars.
and probably sponsorship dollars because an increased number of members. Now, on the other hand, if my chamber is that 36 % market penetration rate, and I’m already eight points over what the average is, it would be a really bad business decision for me to do exactly the same thing you are. And that’s why we need to have metrics, these standard metrics, because depending on where you’re at,
Brandon Burton (24:25.881)
Yeah.
Matt Appenzeller (24:33.332)
in the spectrum of things, you’re going to make different business decisions about where you’re
Brandon Burton (24:40.877)
I love that perspective of being able to see where to allocate resources. I think you’ll still, I would imagine you’ll have your outliers who are way ahead of the pack that are gonna bring that industry standard up higher than, you know, mess up the curve for everybody. But it does help to see where to align your efforts and focus to be able to meet those goals.
Matt Appenzeller (24:57.838)
That’s right. That’s right.
Matt Appenzeller (25:09.57)
Yeah, and hopefully we’ll be able to create cohorts to where those outliers are with the other outliers. And at least they can be compared to each other, right?
Brandon Burton (25:16.407)
Yeah, that makes, yeah, yeah, I like that. And as far as the geography goes, you see a lot of chambers that are starting to address that in their name at least, being the using Richardson, maybe the greater Richardson or the Richardson area chamber. So it’s not just that geographic area, but branches out a little bit, but.
Matt Appenzeller (25:41.422)
That’s right. That’s right.
Brandon Burton (25:42.992)
To your point though, in today’s world, as a business owner, you’re not gonna limit yourself, especially with websites and just the online presence. Anyone in the world could be a potential customer. So as a chamber, why would you limit? And chambers have websites and a lot of them you can join members, join the chamber, can even do sponsorships through their website oftentimes. So why would you limit it? So, yeah.
Matt Appenzeller (26:08.664)
That’s right. That’s right. There’s something to think about it because it does impact the bottom line and the long-term viability of your chamber.
Brandon Burton (26:17.315)
Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to touch on the other two areas and just highlight those a little bit?
Matt Appenzeller (26:25.038)
Sure.
Yeah, so let me back up with the four critical challenges. We say that two of those challenges impact all chambers, and those are the pace of technology and industry standard metrics. The other two challenges only impact some chambers because other chambers have actually solved that problem. And those challenges are leadership and complacency.
Now, if we start with technology, we are living in a really strange time as it comes to technology. mean, it is coming at us in waves. And everybody, think, is having difficulty keeping up with that challenge. But as it relates to chambers, if
If you’re not keeping pace, if you’re not modernizing, if you’re not standardizing, optimizing, or using, if you’re using outdated technology infrastructure, you know, it’s hard for your members to have confidence in you because they’re using that stuff while you are, right? So I know it sounds like keeping up with the Joneses, but that’s just the reality of where we’re at right now as it, as it.
comes to technology.
Brandon Burton (27:51.312)
So on the technology front, I’ve.
You know, obviously with AI, there’s people of different camps and different, you know, different thoughts around it. But, um, to your point, if you’re not using the latest tool sets, if you’re not using the latest technologies that your members are using, that, puts you at a disadvantage. It puts you at a place of, you know, maybe not knowing what you should know to be able to help the business community. Um, but all of your chambers, you know, have the pushback of, well,
Chambers are all about the relationships and if we rely too much on AI Then we’re not building those relationships and having that human touch with our members How would you rebut that? What would your thought be with that?
Matt Appenzeller (28:41.42)
Well, I would say that first of all, the next phase, as far as I understand, the next phase of AI is that it’s going to be into the agentic phase. And so you don’t just have to be using AI for communications. You can be using it for other parts of your operation to do tasks for you that help you save time. But I would also say that an interesting proposition here is I know of at least one chamber that is considering
using AI to make retention phone calls, right? Because that agent can work for them in retention 24-7, right? And so I think that chambers of commerce will need to explore every possibility on how this can be used and what works best for them.
Brandon Burton (29:35.813)
Yeah.
And obviously, you know, the caveat is it comes with training. comes with, you know, being able to give a scope for the AI agent to do, you know, what you want it to do and to not just be another, you know, spam call that you get the filter through. But so there’s all that to deal with. But I think you make a great point that the businesses in your community are using these things to save costs, to be able to stay competitive. And we need to as well as chambers, as an industry, we need to do it to show
Matt Appenzeller (29:46.147)
That’s right.
Matt Appenzeller (29:50.593)
Right.
Brandon Burton (30:07.016)
Not just that we’re relevant, but that we see where the word things are going where the puck is headed, right?
Matt Appenzeller (30:11.214)
That’s right. can’t be a lighthouse for AI at least in what all your other members are using when you yourself are not using it.
Brandon Burton (30:23.331)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to touch on? I know we’ve covered a lot and there’s a lot still to go, but what else stands out for you?
Matt Appenzeller (30:31.971)
You know?
Well, there’s just a lot of ground here. And so I would say just in one of the other areas, as far as complacency goes, I think that in some of these smaller chambers over time, what ends up happening is, I don’t think it’s like a conscious choice. I just think that they have mission drift that over time, you know, they have somehow become, you know, rather than the chamber of commerce, they become like the
the chamber of charity or the chamber of community or the chamber of civics, as one of my colleagues used to say. And then there’s also this sort of hesitance, hesitancy to have an impact on their community because having an impact as a leader in your community means that yes, you do need to stick your neck out there and.
Sometimes people are not going to take too kindly of that. Yeah. So you just got to understand that, you know, impact makes waves. That’s a kind of the point we make in the book that, you know, you can’t shy away from it. I mean, it’s just part of the territory. This is Sue. This is the role that you’re in as a leader and as a chamber. And if you want to make an impact in your community, you are going to make some waves.
Brandon Burton (31:33.325)
It burned a little bit,
Matt Appenzeller (31:57.912)
So I’m just making you aware of that, right? You can’t shy away from it.
Brandon Burton (31:59.312)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can’t lead a chamber just to make friends, you know, it’s gonna, it’s gonna make some ways for sure. It’s a great note. Well, Matt, I like asking everyone I have on the show, especially on behalf of those listening who have that desire to take their chamber up to the next level. And I would say even to be a chamber of impact, what kind of tip or action item would you leave with them to try to accomplish that goal?
Matt Appenzeller (32:06.21)
That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.
Matt Appenzeller (32:30.35)
well, I’d say just actually two things. First of all, again, back to technology, make sure that you are modernizing, standardizing, optimizing. That’s really important in today’s day and age. I know it’s coming at us fast. I know that you may make a decision now about a product and all of sudden the technology changes, you know, three weeks later, but you just kind of have to roll with it. The second thing that I would just say is that, you know, if people would
If they have ever read ACCE’s original Horizon Report in 2025, you know, they talk about catalytic leadership and that’s the kind of leadership that your chamber needs where you are the people who are initiating change, not just the one that is helping them cope with change, right?
And so I think that that’s the kind of chamber, the most successful chambers are going to be the ones who are doing that.
Brandon Burton (33:37.541)
Love that, not just to help them cope with change. The chamber of counseling, right? Yeah.
Matt Appenzeller (33:41.334)
Those aren’t my words. Yeah, mean, yeah, I mean, those aren’t my words, but those that comes directly out of the report. I highly encourage people to read that and also read the follow-up report for 2035.
Brandon Burton (33:51.385)
Yeah.
Brandon Burton (33:57.562)
Yeah, awesome. Well, Matt, the other question I like asking everybody, and I think this is going to be particularly on point with our discussion today, how do you see the future of chambers going, the future of chambers and their purpose going forward?
Matt Appenzeller (34:16.536)
Yeah.
I think a lot of that is gonna be dependent on where technology takes us, right? I see.
smaller chambers coming to the realization that they’re going to need to merge simply because like the industrial era is kind of over, right? I mean, I’m not gonna say it’s completely over, but you just don’t get a lot of new building as much as you have new technology that is driving commerce, right? And so,
And so I think in some of these smaller communities where they may have been bedroom communities and a segment of their population, you know, drove to the next county and that’s where everybody worked. And now those jobs are no longer there. I just think it’s the prudent move for them would be to consider merging with other.
smaller chambers within their area and just forming regional chambers and doing it that
Brandon Burton (35:30.019)
Yeah, yeah, definitely could be some value in doing that and obviously, know, assessing the needs in your community and see where that technology takes us. It’ll be a fun ride for sure. Well, man, I wanted to give you an opportunity to share any contact information or anywhere you’d like to point anyone to that might want to learn more about these concepts you’re talking about or connect with you and where would you point them and direct them?
Matt Appenzeller (35:37.602)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Appenzeller (35:41.55)
That’s right. That’s right.
Matt Appenzeller (35:58.702)
Sure, well, you can go to our website at joinsoca.com, joinsaka.com, or you can send us an email at info@joinsoca.com. If you want to learn more about the scorecard or maybe some of these other concepts, we’d happy to share them with you.
Brandon Burton (36:19.055)
Very good. We’ll make sure those are in our show notes as well. So it’ll be nice and easy to find and click on. But Matt, this has been great having you on the show. I look forward to the book coming out and getting it out there is another core piece to the chamber library that all these chamber leaders out there should have.
Matt Appenzeller (36:39.827)
Yeah, so just one more point on that, know, Dave Atkinson challenged all of us really like to have this dialogue and that’s really all I’m trying to do. I mean, I personally think that we need more literature out there because we just don’t have a lot. So that’s all I’m trying to do is just make a contribution to our profession before my time is up. Right. So thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.
Brandon Burton (37:06.943)
Absolutely, it’s been my pleasure.
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