Category: Finances

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Brandon Burton 0:00
This is the Chamber Chat Podcast, the show dedicated to chamber professionals to spark ideas and to get actionable tips and strategies to better serve your members and community.

Hello, Chamber Champions. Welcome to Chamber Chat Podcast. I’m your hosts Brandon Burton. And it’s my goal here on the podcast to introduce you to people and ideas to better help you serve your Chamber members and your community.

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Our guest for this episode is Bob Thomas. Bob is the Chief Operating Officer and integrator for the Michigan Chamber of Commerce and Executive Director for the Michigan Chamber Foundation. Bob is a widely respected chamber and Association Executive with over 27 years of experience in the nonprofit industry. He served as the primary operations staff member since 2012 Bob is responsible for day to day operations of the chamber, including facilities, technology and information systems, human resources and finance. Bob also assists with strategic planning, revenue development, membership and meetings management. His accomplishments include assisting the chamber to achieve three designations as an accredited State Chamber with distinction as executive director for the Michigan chamber foundation. Bob oversees alignment and direction of its leadership programs, public policy, research and events related to free enterprise, competitiveness, leadership and entrepreneurship. Bob, I’m excited to have you with us today here on Chamber Chat Podcast. I’d love to give you an opportunity to say hello to all the Chamber Champions who are out there listening, and to share something interesting about yourself so we can all get to know you a little better. Hey,

Bob Thomas 2:23
Chamber Champions, glad to finally make it on the Chamber Podcast, Chamber Chat Podcast, it’s my pleasure to be here. Interesting fact about me, I set a goal about 10 years ago to see all 50 states before I turned 50, and I checked my last state off the list this last year with Alaska. Alaska.

Brandon Burton 2:45
That’s a good that’s a good capstone for or your 50th state. It’s a beautiful state.

Bob Thomas 2:51
Great trip.

Brandon Burton 2:53
Yeah, for a lot of people, I know they wanted to be much higher on their list of places to be, and it probably was for you as well. It’s just a matter of getting there.

Bob Thomas 3:00
That’s right, it’s probably the hardest one to get there, but it’s well, actually the Dakota is for the hardest one, because those weren’t necessarily a destination on my list, but I was actually pleasantly surprised everybody should actually make it to North and South Dakota as well.

Brandon Burton 3:15
Yeah, there you go. Shout out to North and South Dakota. Well, tell us a little bit about the Michigan chamber, just to give us an idea and set the stage for our discussion today, I usually like asking about the size of the chamber, staff, budget, scope of work. It’s a little bit different being a State Chamber, but give us the background and information on the Michigan chamber that could be helpful to listeners.

Bob Thomas 3:39
Sure. So we are a statewide Chamber of Commerce, one of almost 50 in the country. We are based here in the state’s capital, Lansing, Michigan. We’re just four blocks down from the State Capitol building. We have 29 staff, most of them are in our membership development and engagement teams. And then we have a $6 million budget, sometimes up to $8 million depending on whether or not and it’s an election year, because our main value proposition is certainly our advocacy components and how we connect our members to state government, legislators, other elected officials, and we pride ourselves on participating in the election process to help make sure that we’re getting pro business candidates there to represent Michigan’s over 200,000 businesses in the state. Yeah. So

Brandon Burton 4:35
as we’re recording this, this is the the first of November, 2024 so hopefully you guys are looking forward to a little bit of reprieve after next week with the with the elections, and be able to take a little bit of a sigh

Bob Thomas 4:47
of relief, hopefully, hopefully a sigh of relief. But

Brandon Burton 4:52
nonetheless, right,

Bob Thomas 4:55
every election presents new opportunities for us to represent our members and so. We’ll see what that brings us next week.

Brandon Burton 5:01
Yeah, fantastic. Well, as we get into our topic today, I think this is one of those topics that everyone listening can relate to in one way or another, as we talk about focusing our conversation around negotiating compensation and benefits. And I think you know, depending on where you are in your your career at a chamber, if you’re just starting out, if you’re just looking to get in to the chamber industry, or if you’re a long time seasoned chamber veteran, or somebody on the tail end of your career, hopefully we’ll be able to touch on on all those different aspects throughout this episode, as as Bob’s with us today to share some of his insights, and we’ll we’ll dive in much deeper on this topic. As soon as we get back from this quick break.

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All right, Bob, we’re back, and as I mentioned before the break, we’re talking today about negotiating compensation and benefits, which I know can be a very important topic for for those in the chamber world, but really for anybody. But also it can be a very uncomfortable topic for somebody to approach and to to say, here’s what I need. And just having some of those conversations that can be a little more difficult. So I’m hopeful that our in our conversation today, that we’ll be able to come, come out of this with some takeaways that could be helpful in giving that that encouragement and that support to help people have those conversations. So I’m going to hand the hand the mic over to you and share with us what what comes to mind first, when you when you think about negotiating compensation benefits, maybe from the perspective of somebody new or just coming into the chamber world,

Bob Thomas 8:28
sure. Well, I think most of the listeners can commiserate that we didn’t necessarily join the chamber for the money, that there are probably lots of other opportunities out there for us to make more money, but they don’t always necessarily line up with our life circumstance, our passion points, or even, you know, what we’re committed to doing as a career and so and that makes it sometimes more difficult when we’re talking about negotiating or asking for compensation that matches our unique abilities and the skills that we’re bringing to the table, because the budgets don’t always necessarily match what those abilities are. But I would say, you know, for folks who are looking at a chamber job, or are earlier in their career on a chamber job, there’s lots of questions that they should be asking themselves before they go into the negotiating process so that they’re best prepared to ask for what is reasonable and appropriate for their level of job. And the first one, I think, that we tend to overlook is what is the market actually paying for these jobs? And and on one hand, we could be looking at, you know, similar organizations, other nonprofits, or other chambers of commerce that have similar markets, but that data isn’t always accurate or fair to the talents that we’re bringing to the table. So I would always encourage folks to also look at. Are similar jobs paying in the private sector and to see what is a good match, you know? So if I’m a marketing and membership person, what are other marketing level jobs paying for similar size organizations? Or if I’m an accountant, you know, what are other accounting jobs paying for summer situation? So that’s the first one. I just know what is the market even available for that kind of a position? Yeah, I think

Brandon Burton 10:26
if you’re, if we’re strictly looking at other nonprofits, you’re going to immediately put yourself as at a little bit of a disadvantage, because I think chamber staff, they wear so many hats, and it’s not, it’s not necessarily like other nonprofit organizations, where you have the scope, and that’s that’s all you do, because everybody brings everything to the chamber and expect you to be magicians and figure it out. So if you can bring that skill set and say, here’s where these things fit in the private sector, this is what I’m worth. I think that’s great advice, yeah,

Bob Thomas 10:55
but with a caveat, because sometimes the first place where we shoot ourselves in the foot is we look at large mass market surveys like salary.com or Glassdoor, and those are really helpful to kind of give you a range, but that’s an average of lots of different size organizations, and so sometimes we either are over inflated, or, in the case of other nonprofits, under representing what our value potentially is to the organization. So I would say, especially if you’re already in the chamber world and you have access to your state survey or to the ACCE benchmarking data, those are great places to look.

Brandon Burton 11:29
Yeah, that’s that’s good advice. Being able to see what what other peers are getting is very helpful.

Bob Thomas 11:38
And don’t be afraid to talk about it with the network. I think chamber folks are more transparent than others to help share where they’re at and how they can help lift each other up. Yeah, they’re also probably your best supporters. For you to figure out what your value is, again, chambers tend to attract a lot of servant type workers, and so we go in with the idea of, I love this work, I’m happy to do it, but we don’t always emphasize what our value is to the organization. And so then sometimes we take less or ask for less than what we are due because we love the work so much that we’ll, we’ll do it for less. Yeah, and that doesn’t always set yourself up for sell your set yourself up for a long term success if you’re going to start on the low end.

Brandon Burton 12:31
Now, I’m from the maybe on the hiring perspective. You know, as we’ve got a lot of executives that are listening, some their boards give a lot of leeway, not a lot, maybe, but a lot might be generous, but give them some leeway as far as what salary could be for staff and others are very tightly controlled by their board. So I hope through our conversation today, we can integrate some of that too. How do we approach this at the board and show where the value lies in bringing on staff and our own self worth as well.

Bob Thomas 13:06
Yeah, well, that’s actually my next point is understand what the decision making process is. So if you’re a staff member going to the executive and asking for a raise, or you’re trying to negotiate your compensation, I think the last thing most executives want is a surprise number. I think this is a regular conversation you should be having with your boss in general about what your long term expectations are for your career and for what your compensation will look like, and how that might ebb and flow based on your personal needs. And that would give them an idea about when they can be an advocate for you with the board, or when they need to be more transparent with the budget, but just to have that open conversation and when it does come down to board clamps that are really difficult to get away from, at least understand, when do they have to take it to the board, and when would it get shot down in that particular case, or when is there a leeway so that you can take advantage of those opportunities to grow your compensation, but definitely have that transparent conversation, either with your board chair, if you’re the exec, or with your boss, so that they know kind of what you’re thinking and where Your goals are long term.

Brandon Burton 14:20
Yeah, I think that’s that’s good. I like the idea of the long term expectations. Have those conversations being had along the way. Say, Yeah, I’m new to the chamber now, but you know, down the road, this is what, how I’d like to see my career develop. I’d like to be at the Chamber long term, or this is a stopping point for a year or two, while I finish my degree, or while I do whatever it may be, and just being open and transparent, I think, helps both sides figure out what’s what’s the best and what’s most fair as far as compensation goes, Yeah,

Bob Thomas 14:51
at least give your boss a chance to come back and say that’s probably not going to work. You know, if it’s not realistic to match with your budget or these are the things that. Need to change in order for us to be able to afford that. Or, yeah, we could do that, but this is how you need to progress within your position in order to achieve that number. I think when you have that conversation, that makes it easier. It’s less of a surprise and less uncomfortable year after year, if you’re starting off a transparent foot, right?

Brandon Burton 15:21
So I’m always curious about the the more seasoned chamber professional that chambers are unique and that you you’re tied in with your community. You’re, you’re running things in the community, you know all the players. You’re, you know, convening. You’re bringing people together. But some seasoned chamber professionals feel the only way to advance in their career is to move to another community, to take another position at maybe a larger chamber. Is that true, or is that a fallacy? How can that seasoned chamber professional approach growth within their career path?

Bob Thomas 15:57
While I’ve seen that in Michigan and really with some of my colleagues from across the country, that is a real opportunity. And if you’re willing to up your route yourself and move to another community or another state, that probably is a great way to increase your compensation most quickly. But I don’t know that that’s realistic, especially for folks who have families or their kids are in school. You know you can potentially be looking at 12 to 15 years in a community where your kids are and that doesn’t really make it feasible for you to leave or perhaps your spouse or partner has a great job and they’re not willing to leave that either. So you know, there are lots of different reasons why you might have strings to a community that doesn’t make it easy for you to move to another community for a better paying job. And so when you think about that, those are the times to think about. You know, how can you grow the pot or the resources? How do you communicate with your board, what your intent is for staying with the chamber? I think most boards would find comfort in knowing that they’ve got some longevity in a leader for their organization, but not all. And so making sure that you’re going to bat for yourself with those folks who are also holding the purse strings to understand your value and to be able to negotiate that. And so one of the suggestions I have in those cases, especially if you’re in a community longer than five years, you should be creating that pat on the back file and documenting what your impact is every year so that you can show progress or achievements that you’ve been making within the chamber and remind the board what you’re doing in order to make that impact and how the chamber is progressing, and then try and link whatever your request is to organization goals. So if the board’s interest is in growing revenue, or if it’s in growing membership, tie your request for increasing compensation to those accomplishments and show how you’re going to get there or how you’ve achieved it, and why you’re due additional compensation. I know that a lot of chambers, especially if you’re small and mid sized, don’t always have the growth in revenue that would allow a year over year increase regularly. So a couple other solutions that you might ask for in lieu of a one time jump. And I know a lot of chambers, I’ve been successful with this, most recently, because of the inflationary increases, is try and phase it in over a period of time. So rather than going from a 2% increase to a 10% increase, could you do a two to five to seven or 10% increase over two or three years, that makes it more palatable for the board to absorb, and gives you more time to raise the resources to help fund that. Another one would be to think about alternatives to dollars. So if the short term need is that you need to pay for child care, or you’ve got an increased commute, could you ask for a car allowance or a child care stipend for that period of time rather than asking for a raise? So for boards, that’s a short term cash solution that helps retain you, that’s not necessarily tied to long term increases, but gets you through the things that you need in order to continue to work at the chamber. So those are just a couple of suggestions. If you’re not able to negotiate a large increase, figure out and have a transparent conversation about what do you need so that you can help bridge that gap.

Brandon Burton 19:36
Yeah, I like the idea of even being open to alternatives, too, to be able to say, here’s here’s some of the struggling or the pain points that I’m seeing and how obstacles that I need to be able to overcome in order to stay in this position. Yeah. How can you help me accomplish this? And again, it goes back to having that open and transparent conversation, which, if you’re doing the job that you need to be doing, there. Going to want to retain you and keep you there, and hopefully they’ll work with you to do that. I always think of especially with the the executive position, where you’re often in the same conversations with the city manager or the school superintendent and and you look at the salaries that these individuals are having, and you’re all working towards progress in the community in different ways, from different angles. And I think my personal opinion is the compensation should be a little closer to what they’re making, keeping in mind that everything you know, they have different responsibilities and whatnot as well. But if you’re expected to be in the same room, in the same conversations, the same table, with these other decision makers, these other influencers in the community, compensation should be more in that ballpark than having them way up here in the chamber, exec way down there. I don’t know if you have any other thoughts at that, or how to approach that, or bring that up at the board, yeah,

Bob Thomas 21:00
well, that is a great point, and making sure that in strategic planning, you’re talking with your board about what are the expectations of your leadership as the exec, and that if you are supposed to carry the same weight in that room, you know compensation is one element, access to resources, being able to commit to positions or have a conversation without always having to go back to the board. Are important elements that, you know, help create that equity, but they also have different pots of money and different resources than a lot of chambers. Sometimes it’s a much broader, bigger pot because of the tax base versus private volunteer investment in dues. But to that point, if a chamber Exec is able to garner those resources and they can start to match or create a fund that allows them to pay for that position, then absolutely the board should be looking at at that as some of those comparables in terms of position or responsibility, and so to that point, be thoughtful about who is on your compensation committee and helping to make those decisions. So are they other small business people who look at your compensation and you know, are looking at it through a lens about have and have not, or are they leaders in the community who recognize what the investment is in the chamber in order to move the agenda forward, and so also be thoughtful about are there elected leaders who are on that compensation committee who maybe aren’t making as much as the chamber director? Because in some cases, it could be a downtown development person, or it could be a city manager who isn’t clearing that that same kind of salary compensation, and so just be thoughtful about how you have staffed that compensation committee in order to give yourself the fairest shake possible. That’s

Brandon Burton 22:58
a really good point. Just being intentional about that. Who’s on there? What? What perspectives are they coming from, and how do they perceive you compared to themselves or others that they might see in a similar light as yourself? That’s That’s great advice. So you mentioned a couple different alternatives to compensation. Are there other other thoughts you have around alternatives, or maybe other ideas that it because sometimes to get to that outside the box thinking, some ideas need to be brought to the table. You can’t just say, here’s the problem. Solve it, right? As chamber leaders, chamber staff like we’re in the business of solving problems, so I think to be able to bring some ideas of alternatives to the table could be helpful.

Bob Thomas 23:46
Yeah, I mean, I think executives a lot of times don’t recognize the art that comes to their budgets, and sometimes the easiest money that they that they leave on the table are performance bonuses or bonuses tied to metrics that you’ve improved. So are there opportunities to ask for a percentage of net increase or percentage of margin at the end of the year or at the end of a quarter for exceptional performance? So maybe you had an event that you really knocked out of the park and it cleared a major revenue hurdle with sponsorship, or you had a bang up here with membership and fundraising. Are you asking for a percentage at the end of the year as part of that performance bonus? And that’s something that could waiver or change from year to year, that could be negotiated, or maybe it’s something that you build into an employment agreement, so that is something that you can count on and the board can budget for every year. I think that’s the first thing that’s easiest to budget for and also ask for. But other things, you know, chambers are amazing organizations to work with in terms of flexibility and because we work. Lots of different hours based on our event schedules or needs of the organization. You know, having that flexibility to come and go from the office or come and go from events is a tremendous one. So if you’re not actively using that as a method of your compensation or employment agreement, that could be something in lieu of compensation that you might not get at a for profit organization, professional development budgets, again, those are things that could be incorporated into your budget, especially if you’re looking to complete a degree. It’s a short term increase that could be a pre tax benefit, or maybe it could be negotiated with local university or college that would help defray the cost and only helps make you more marketable and equitable in your organization, ask for PTO vacation or personal days. Maybe you want Fridays off in the summertime that can be negotiated. Or is there something else in benefits, you know, asking for another percentage increase in a 401, K, or asking for things that don’t necessarily have direct tied to your bottom line, but they are ways that can increase your total package. So, you know, being thoughtful about what do you need or what do you want, and are there ways for the chamber to pay for it as part of your employment, rather than coming out in a paycheck, per se?

Brandon Burton 26:30
Yeah, and I think a lot of these things you wouldn’t necessarily have to feel at the bottom line of a chamber budget, some of these considerations, so I like this, especially the professional development budget, because there’s a lot of different ways to approach that and and ways to advance yourself and in your ability as a as a chamber leader.

Bob Thomas 26:52
Great. I know what’s Yeah, one last one is, if the chamber is not able to afford any additional increases, but they could flex some of your time. Are there creative arrangements that you could make with your board to allow you to do an outside employment opportunity? So are you available to consult? Are you available to do some marketing activity? You know, depending on what your skills are, would the chamber allow you to have some of those outside contracts that would help you supplement your income, that don’t necessarily compete with what the chamber does, but absolutely leverage your skills and give you access to a network that would help you build a side business that can be helpful, especially for people toward the end of their career, where the chamber just isn’t going to grow fast enough for you to see that in your compensation, But it would give you a runway or a launchpad into a post retirement career.

Brandon Burton 27:46
And say, I’ve seen a lot of people do that, that transition towards the end of the career, where they go into a consulting gig or marketing or, you know, some something in that realm, and and I assume with a lot of them, that that may have been a consideration along the way, towards the end of their careers, being able to to start something, because they didn’t necessarily just end their their job at the Chamber one day and then start their consulting gig the next day. Usually, it’s been something that’s kind of been building up, kind of in the background, but gaining some momentum as well. How have you seen that be successful for people making that transition from chamber life to more of the entrepreneur, taking it on on their own towards the end of the career? So

Bob Thomas 28:31
I’ve probably seen it be less successful more often than I’ve seen more successful in the sense that if you aren’t keeping care of the chamber as your first priority while also working on the second option. Things tend to end badly, because then people see that you have divided attention. But if you’re able to have those two things coexist, and you can use the resources of the chamber, and you know also the goodwill of your board to do both, then that works, but you do really have to be thoughtful and know that your first obligation is to the chamber, and then the second is that you can build those other things with strategic PTO, you know, or, you know, leveraging some of the relationship relationships you have with members to get additional referrals. So that’s where I would see it be most successful is when you’re able to keep your eye on both balls at the same time. Yeah,

Brandon Burton 29:31
yeah. That’s that’s a good point. One other thing I wanted to just touch back on you had mentioned, like, if you had a bang up here with with your membership or sponsorships or the certain event that’s driving in revenue to to try to get a portion of that back to as a some sort of a bonus, or, you know, performance related bonus. And in a big sense, that’s it’s sort of found money. You know, if you’re going above and beyond what the expectations were, I mean, every, ideally, every dollar coming in should have a purpose, right? That’s coming in. But if you can benchmark that, or kind of dog your that on the front end, and say, every dollar coming in has its purpose, but above this, this threshold, the purposes shift a little bit, and I get rewarded for the work that’s going in.

Bob Thomas 30:24
I think I’ve seen lots of chamber and sex do a fantastic job, and they end up with the year in the black, and then they’re building this reserve account, and they’ve got a major surplus, but they haven’t ever asked for a bonus. They’re just looking at their salary as the only compensation they bring in. And if you’ve done that great of a job that year and you’ve cleared all those hurdles, that should be the easy ask. It is money that’s waiting to be invested, and why not invest in your staff? Yeah,

Brandon Burton 30:56
absolutely. Well, are there any other considerations that we need to think of before we start to wrap up our conversation.

Bob Thomas 31:06
Just one is, you know when those conversations don’t work out in your favor? When should you start to have conversations with yourself or your family that maybe it is time to go? Because I do know that while we think and hope for the best with our boards or with our bosses. Sometimes the resources just aren’t there, or the recognition that the dollars could be invested as staff isn’t there either. And so maybe that’s the time when you’ve got to think, am I aligned with this work anymore? Is it worth the stress, or, you know, the effort that I’m putting into it is there are there other benefits that I would see outside of the chamber, and those are hard conversations, I know, especially because you love your job, or you love your members, and you love what you do, but there’s always a tipping point when it doesn’t necessarily work in your favor. And so also to have that open and honest conversation with yourself and with your board when the juice isn’t worth the squeeze anymore. And unfortunately, those conversations need to happen as regularly as they do when you’re asking for compensation, just to make sure that there’s alignment there with your personal goals and and know when to say when? Yeah, I

Brandon Burton 32:23
think that’s important to think about. And I, as I’ve seen it with a lot of executives as they exit their career, sometimes it comes back to a board member that they just can’t get along with. They can’t see I die. And rather than waiting out whatever is left in the term for that board member, they just see that as the better options to leave, because they can’t, they can’t make it work together. But it’s a whole nother discussion. And, you know, recruiting your board members to make sure you’ve got people on your board that you can work with and that you can move the ball forward and not have that kind of conflict, so that that’ll lead into a longer term ability at your chamber, if you’re if you’re the executive, if you’re staff, and you can’t get along with your boss, that’s a whole nother story. So Right?

Bob Thomas 33:11
And I would say probably in the most extreme case, and I’ve ran into a couple of chambers since the pandemic, where this has been more common than not, it’s never okay to work for free. So if cash flow has become an issue, or it’s a situation where the board is asking you to defer your compensation or just get through a slow period because of cash flow, in my opinion, that’s never okay. Everybody is worth a paycheck. And to be really thoughtful about, you know, what are the underlying issues that you don’t have cash that would make payroll, and in those particular cases, if they can’t afford you, let alone afford an increase that’s also not worth your time. So make sure that you’re holding your boards and yourself to the standard that you are worth the job of running a chamber is worth a paycheck. So I’m hoping there’s a lot of listeners out there that agree with me, and that nobody out there is not working for free, because that’s, in my opinion, just unacceptable. And I know it happens more often than we know about

Brandon Burton 34:18
Yeah, I 100% endorse that everyone is worth a paycheck. Yes. Well, Bob, as we start to wrap things up here, I like to see if there’s any kind of tip or action item for listeners who are looking to take their organization up to the next level. What would you suggest for them to try to implement to accomplish that goal,

Bob Thomas 34:39
specific around compensation, and, you know, asking for what you’re due or what you’re valued at, I would just say, you know, have an annual conversation with yourself about what’s important to you, what are your priorities, and how do you value those, both personally in terms of your own growth and development. And then also monetarily. What is that worth? What is your time worth to you and your family in order for you to achieve your goals? And then second is to share that and have an open conversation with the people who are making decisions about your compensation, so that you’re aligned. And if you’re not aligned, then you at least know where the line was, because I do find that people who are willing to have those open and honest conversations are more likely to negotiate things that work for everybody than to be denied or catch people by surprise. And so I guess that would be my advice is just to know yourself first and then second. Don’t be afraid to ask for it. Just have that open conversation.

Brandon Burton 35:43
I like it well, as we look to the future of chambers of commerce, how do you see the future of chambers and their purpose going forward?

Bob Thomas 35:52
Well, this is a great time to ask that question, because I know ACCE is about to come out with our horizon 2.0 and I’m really excited about what that could look like for our chambers, in terms of a road map of things that we should be asking about. I find the chamber future to be bright, and I know that there’s a lot of movement and a lot of change right now. We’re seeing a lot of generational impact on what our chambers look like, but I also find that means the chambers that are disciplined to know what they’re all about and what value they bring to their communities, they’re going to find a business model that’s going to make them more relevant than ever. I always say, imagine what your community would look like without a chamber, and you’ve probably driven through it, definitely haven’t stopped in it. And so the chambers that have figured that out, or the communities that have figured that out, are supporting their chambers, and those chambers are vibrant, bright and offering a lot of value to the business community.

Brandon Burton 36:55
Yeah, yeah, I love that. But Bob, I like to ask everyone I have on this show. If there’s a listener who wants to reach out and connect with you, get to learn a little bit more about what we talked about today. What would be the best way, or where would you point them to reach out and connect with you?

Bob Thomas 37:10
Well, the easiest way is definitely through email, at the Michigan chamber B Thomas at MI chamber.com, or happy to connect with folks through my LinkedIn profile. LinkedIn slash Thomas Bob. Double check to make sure that was the right one. Yep,

Brandon Burton 37:31
there’s no other Bob Thomas, right.

Bob Thomas 37:35
There are a ton of Bob Thomas that would be the right Bob Thomas’s. LinkedIn slash Thomas, Bob, and would love to hear from my chamber colleagues, because I’ve worked at the Michigan Chamber for over 27 years, and these are some of my best friends and most valued relationships are in this community. So always glad to hear from them.

Brandon Burton 37:55
Very good. Well, we’ll get that in our show notes, including the LinkedIn, you know, the correct profile in LinkedIn to make it easy and have people find you, but I appreciate you setting aside some time to be with us today on chamber chat podcast and approaching this important topic, I mean it. It really does. It breaks my heart every time I see somebody exit the chamber world or and there’s a lot of different reasons, but when I see the good people leave for the private sector, I’m like, I wish we could keep them in the chamber world a little longer. So being able to have these conversations and hopefully keep some of these good ones in the chamber world as long as they want to be there, I think, is fantastic. So thank you for sharing this with us today.

Bob Thomas 38:38
Thanks for having me. It’s always good to have alumni if you’re not able to stay in the chamber. But I agree. I love working with chamber people, and it’s I’m glad when they’re able to work it out and they can stay.

Brandon Burton 38:50
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